daveguy 10 years ago

It says "painkillers" -- a very general term -- but the study was on acetaminophen (tylenol). Obviously the results don't directly hold for aspirin, ibuprofen, etc. Although, it would be interesting to do a similar study of other painkillers.

  • sillysaurus3 10 years ago

    What are some of the differences between the various types of painkillers? I've never thought about it.

    I'm hoping for a highly technical answer, but anything would be interesting.

    • daveguy 10 years ago

      I'm not sure if you have any biomedical background so I will start from the beginning. Looking for details on "how a medicine works" the key phrase is "mechanism of action". This is a description of known interactions of a medicine with protein molecules in the body. DNA is code for proteins and proteins are the interactors in the body (a rough analogy is DNA is the source code, proteins are the binary).

      So, the mechanisms of action are the key to both major effects and side-effects. If a medicine works well, it mediates a single pathway of protein interactions and produces no degradation products or side-effects in other pathways. Here are wikipedia descriptions of mechanisms of action for different medicines:

      https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Paracetamol#Mechanism_of_actio...

      https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mechanism_of_action_of_aspirin

      https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ibuprofen#Mechanism_of_action

      They do have COX inhibition in common. COX is a protein enzyme that mediates pain and inflammation response:

      https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cyclooxygenase

      However, they have slightly different side effects (secondary interactions) and some may have additional primary interactions (those that mediate pain). For instance there is evidence that tylenol has direct interaction with receptors in the spinal cord to mediate nerve signaling (separate from inflammatory and pain response sources via COX).

      So, the indication of a side-effect with acetaminophen does not imply there is a definite side-effect with all painkillers (or even all COX inhibiting painkillers). Although it is a good indication that other painkillers should be evaluated for the effect and if it is common to all COX inhibiting painkillers then it may be that specific path.

      Living animals are a beautiful and complex interaction of proteins and small molecules. It is exciting when we determine how one piece of the puzzle might work. The complexity involved makes it difficult to broadly apply results until the broader context has been evaluated.

      • sillysaurus3 10 years ago

        This was a wonderful comment. Thanks very much!

        • goldenkey 10 years ago

          Just to clarify, all over the counter painkillers are NSAIDs, non steroidal anti inflammatory drugs. And like OC said, they all inhibit COX1 and COX2. Selective COX1 inhibitors have been created as prescription drugs to avoid effects of stomach ulcers and liver damage but were pulled off the market due to studies showing increased risk of heart attacks. Ie. Celebrex

          https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Celecoxib

          https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/NSAID

          • DanBC 10 years ago

            https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/NSAID

            > Paracetamol (acetaminophen) is generally not considered an NSAID because it has only little anti-inflammatory activity. It treats pain mainly by blocking COX-2 mostly in the central nervous system, but not much in the rest of the body.[3]

            • goldenkey 10 years ago

              Personally I take Naproxen Sodium (Aleve.) It has a long half life and high anti-inflammatory activity. One thing to note is that NSAIDs are best taken in high doses sparingly rather than a temperate dose daily. Inflammation is best defeated by impulse of NSAIDs. I suffer from chronic pain due to herniated discs. When I notice it is due to inflammation I take 2 Aleve extra strength gel caps. And the inflammation subsides for at least a week or two. I know this isnt totally related and slightly anecdotal but as hackers I figure that you guys would like to know from a fellow hacker that did the research.

  • dang 10 years ago

    Ok, we changed the title to specify that.

another-one 10 years ago

I have OCD (obsessive compulsive disorder). Where a normal person may have a fleeting thought about something and discard it, my brain can get "stuck" on that thought.

I view it as the check mechanism NOT kicking in as it should.

I have found that acetaminophen helps to put the check mechanism back in place. It can slow down or stop the runaway train.

nonbel 10 years ago

Anyone know the best way to open a ".spv" file? The data for this paper is "free" as long as you have SPSS apparently. I was able to get the .sav file opened, but many of the column names mean nothing to me. https://osf.io/xpmd2/

  • DanBC 10 years ago

    IBM have a free viewer. http://www-01.ibm.com/support/docview.wss?uid=swg21479879

    I have no idea how useful that is.

    > Question

    > How does one view IBM SPSS Statistics output if s/he does not have Statistics, or has an earlier version than that which produced the output?

    > Answer

    > For output produced by versions of SPSS/Statistics 16.0 and later (i.e., *.spv files), the free IBM SPSS Smartreader is available for Windows, Mac, and Linux from the SPSS Community (www.ibm.com/developerworks/spssdevcentral). Look for the Download materials for IBM SPSS Statistics.

    • nonbel 10 years ago

      Anyway, I figured it out by comparing the means of the columns to the tables in the paper[1]. I was wondering about the claim that "the magnitude of an individual’s Pe correlates positively with omission errors", since they do not show this plot.

      You can see it by plotting "pe.diff.meanpz.cpz" vs "percent.omission.errors" from the data.sav file at the OSF link (I used the R "memisc" package). There is a correlation, but just slightly (eg the subjects with the highest error had middling Pe).

      Also, the error rates correspond to the control group not clicking (on average) when they saw an F instead of an E 1-2 times out of 60 vs 3-4 times for the acetaminophen group.

      They say "the effect of acetaminophen on errors of omission, while robust, was unanticipated". So this was the result of exploratory analysis. Personally I wouldn't put much stock into the idea that acetaminophen "hinders the brains error correction mechanism" based on these results.

      [1] http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/26892161

marvel_boy 10 years ago

Newbie here. Not sure If I understand correctly. So, there is a reason to not take painkillers at work?

  • brimstedt 10 years ago

    Ia there a reason TO take painkillers (at work or not)?

    If you are not seriously ill, like having cancer or a broken bone, why do you take painkillers?

    Imo, by taking pain killers you shut of the bodys built in protection thats telling you either to eat, drink or rest.

    Few people should require to do this.

    If you require painkillers to get through the day (or year) you should consider your position and how youre treating your self and your body.

    • noir_lord 10 years ago

      > If you are not seriously ill, like having cancer or a broken bone, why do you take painkillers?

      Define seriously ill, I have a spinal condition, it's not going to kill me in the next ten minutes but it causes constant pain some days meaning I'm more functional with painkillers than without.

      The sooner we figure out how to turn off pain the better, I know my spine is knackered I've seen the MRI's, I don't need a constant grinding reminder.

      > If you require painkillers to get through the day (or year) you should consider your position and how youre treating your self and your body.

      ..or you have a debilitating condition that medicine can do nothing about and you need them to stay functional, I think unless you've experience chronic pain (or someone close to you has) you are not really aware of how insidious it is, unmanaged it will eat away at you.

      EDIT: For the record I'll wager I'm considerably physically fitter than the average for my age, I cycle and swim a lot and workout every day, I also eat very cleanly but I can do those things because of the painkillers without them I'd be stuffed in terms of exercising.

      • brimstedt 10 years ago

        Perhaps "seriously " was a bad choice of words here.

        What im talking about is the increasing number of people who get a headache at work solves it with pain killers.

        If you have a real medical condition its different of course.

        • noir_lord 10 years ago

          Perhaps, the problem with conditions primarily resulting in pain is that everyone has different tolerances for it.

          I take about half the painkillers that are the average for someone with my condition but I'm also on the good end of the scale in terms of symptoms (partially because I lost a lot of weight, force myself to exercise and took up pilates) and partially because I have a highish tolerance for pain (I broke my elbow in three places and went to work the next day since I didn't realise I had) but I don't make comments on what other people need to do to get through the day.

          The principle drug I take does have a marked effect on my cognitive performance so I have to walk the line between enough to be functional all the time.

      • cpncrunch 10 years ago

        Have you read John Sarno's books? If not, I would highly recommend them.

        • noir_lord 10 years ago

          I'm aware of him but what I have isn't well known or something that is amenable to normal physiotherapy.

          https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Syringomyelia basically a cavity in the spine that presses on the nerves causing pain and eventually permanent spinal damage, prognosis ranges from painful for rest of life through to you die depending on size, location and progression.

          • cpncrunch 10 years ago

            Syringomyelia often doesn't cause any pain and isn't progressive. Just because it shows up on the MRI doesn't mean it is the reason for the pain, or that it is progressive. I certainly think it's worth exploring other possible causes for the pain.

            >I'm aware of him but what I have isn't well known or something that is amenable to normal physiotherapy.

            He doesn't practice or recommend physiotherapy.

            • noir_lord 10 years ago

              > Syringomyelia often doesn't cause any pain and isn't progressive. Just because it shows up on the MRI doesn't mean it is the reason for the pain,

              True however my neurologist disagrees and since she's a consultant with decades of experience I'll go with her view ;)

    • facetube 10 years ago

      Yes. Outside of some city/state/local laws, Americans as a whole do not have mandatory paid (or even, in some cases, even unpaid) sick leave protections. Every day, some Americans are being forced to decide between going to work sick and being fired into poverty.

    • aninhumer 10 years ago

      The problem is, even once you take action to correct the cause of a headache (assuming you can tell what that is) the headache often sticks around for the next few hours regardless.

    • jakobegger 10 years ago

      I've suffered from semi-regular headaches -- sometimes every week, currently about once a month. I don't know what's causing them; the neurologist said it's migraine, another doctor said it might be allergies, other people told me that they are probably related to tension in my spine and another well-meaning friend told me I should just drink more water.

      Ibuprofen lets me get rid of my headache 90% of the time.

      Sure, frequent painkiller use has side effects (stomach troubles for me), but the alternative is spending two days in pain unable to concentrate.

      I know a few people who have been suffering from headaches all their life, and there just isn't a simple lifestyle change that will get rid of it.

      • Flow 10 years ago

        I have a very similar story. Have you tried any medicines against anxiety? It could be something as simple as magnesium and water. Or Atarax or Buspirone. I've discovered these reduce the chance of a headache breaking out by quite a bit.

        But if there's a real tension/migraine headache, ibuprofen is the only medicine that I've tried that helps.

        But these days I'm very careful about taking ibuprofen, it hurts my stomach and I've already suffered vitamin B9/12 deficiency once. Not fun at all.

        • beefield 10 years ago

          Have you tried something like https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Omeprazole when eating ibuprofen? I am not a doctor, but I have understood that it is recommended if you have issues with ibuprofen and stomach.

          • Flow 10 years ago

            Yes I have. It works ok most of the time.

        • nibs 10 years ago

          FYI you may want to take a genetic test. I found that my migranes came from HLA-DQ2.5 gene (Celiac) and that my stomach pain from Ibuprofin came from a gene that I have that causes inflammation when taking ibuprofin. And both gave me B12 deficiency (among other things) before I stopped eating wheat and taking Advil to cure the problems it created. Lots of this stuff is driven by genetics most people are not (but could be) aware of.

        • jakobegger 10 years ago

          I've tried magnesium and water, but that just gave me diarrhea (which is a result of too much magnesium, I think). Haven't tried any of the others.

          I also had stomach troubles from ibuprofen, so I try to vary painkillers (Paracetamol, Parkemed also seem to work), but fortunately I have less headaches now...

      • Casseres 10 years ago

        Being dehydrated makes people more susceptible to headaches, and many people don't even realize they're dehydrated or think dehydration just means "dying of thirst".

        How often do you drink water? Try having a water bottle with you so it's easier to hydrate rather having to get up and go to a water fountain a lot.

      • cpncrunch 10 years ago

        For a lot of people (not saying this is the case for you), headaches are caused by stress, and fixing the problem (e.g. quitting their job) does completely resolve the headaches/migraines.

        Looking at your bio, it looks like you're in a pretty sweet work situation right now, running your own business, so I would imagine that workplace stress isn't a major factor for you right now. Have you noticed your headaches decrease recently? Do you take sufficient breaks from your work, get exercise, etc?

        Also, caffeine withdrawal will guarantee that you have a splitting headache for about 24 hours. If you do consume anything with caffeine, make sure you consume it every day. (IMO caffeine is best avoided, as it doesn't have any positive effects when taken long-term).

        • galdosdi 10 years ago

          (Tangentially, my instinct would _not_ be to associate "running your own business" with "stress isn't a major factor" -- totally depends on how the business is going and how it's structured, but given no other information I'd assume just the opposite by default.)

          • cpncrunch 10 years ago

            Yes, of course. However the OP's business seemed to be similar to mine (earning reasonably good money from a product that is already developed and requires minimal support), which is unlikely to be a significant source of stress. At least, that's what I infer from reading his bio.

        • jakobegger 10 years ago

          I do have fewer headaches now (once a month is absolutely tolerable in my opinion), and it might be due to less stress. I've also been trying to improve my lifestyle (excercising regularly, standing desk, cycling to work, eating healthy), so that might also be a factor.

          I've also discovered some things that seem to trigger headaches (drinking beer, not drinking coffee), and avoid them. I can't avoid some triggers like sudden weather changes, though. But mostly, I just don't know what triggered it.

          Anyway, I appreciate your suggestions.

    • jamesrcole 10 years ago

      If you require painkillers to get through the day (or year) you should consider your position and how youre treating your self and your body.

      You think it's just a matter of choice or effort for all people? Life's not so simple, and you should learn a bit more about some of the things people face.

      • brimstedt 10 years ago

        Of course, we're all individuals with our own set of bodies and problems.

        But still, if some developer at my office is getting neck problems, HR starts looking into her officespace, what chair is in use, can it be tuned, etc. People expect there to be an external cause for the problem.

        Same person get headaches? Painkillers.

        • jamesrcole 10 years ago

          My point is that there are some problems that there's no ergonomics, no lifestyle changes, no amounts of exercises or stretches, and so on, that are effective for.

          I'm not saying these problems are fundamentally impossible to address, but there are currently problems that our present level of understanding is not very good at dealing with.

          As a side note, I believe that ergonomics is currently a pseudo science that is only effective if you've got a common sort of problem. All the ergonomics advice I've ever been given for my problems has been terrible.

        • wallflower 10 years ago

          That is a very good point you made about ergonomics as the solution for poor typing practices.

          As someone who suffers from decades prior of poor typing, I think there is a cultural propensity to associate RSI/CTS with external solutions. Especially people talking about having surgery for RSI/CTS symptoms as a "cure" of sorts.

          The way I try to describe it to the younger generation is like this. When you are young, you can put your body through a malicious amount of abuse through typing. As you get older, you may start experiencing pain of sorts directly related to binges of typing. However, they usually go away after rest. What happens is that eventually the rest does not fully subside the pain/strain/soreness, it is always there. That is RSI/CTS/whatever you choose to call it. You broke the camel's back.

    • raverbashing 10 years ago

      Says the person who has never had a headache/migrane, pulled a muscle or had some condition treatable with painkillers/NSAIDs and had to go to work.

    • kyriakos 10 years ago

      I suffer from migraines. Paracetamol helps me most of the times when taken early allowing me to function for the rest of the day. Otherwise I'm a zombie hiding in the dark for many hours waiting for the pain to go away. It's not life threatening but it still feels necessary to me.

  • DanBC 10 years ago

    They tested this in people who have no pain.

    We don't know yet whether someone in pain is going to make more errors than that person with their pain controlled by acetaminophen / paracetamol.

    • prodmerc 10 years ago

      Hmm, head-splitting pain or paracetamol? The choice is getting tougher by the day /s

  • GFK_of_xmaspast 10 years ago

    Please talk to a doctor instead and don't take medical advice from the Hacker News commentariat.

    • unclebucknasty 10 years ago

      Why? I was just about to post a pic of my rash to imgur and ask HN to give me their thoughts.

alexandercrohde 10 years ago

I think this title can be misleading, be sure to read the article closely. From the article, what when they say "error correction," all they mean learning a new task while under the influence of aspirin is lower.

Which to me seems obvious given that it's a social-pain reliever. Frankly, a psychology experimentee has no motivation to "score well" other than pride, so any drug that reduces the sensation of shame would make an experimentee try less hard.

  • tempestn 10 years ago

    Just a note, acetaminophen isn't aspirin. Acetaminophen is known as Paracetamol in some places, and is sold as Tylenol brand.

hyperpape 10 years ago

Has anyone looked at the article and can comment on how large the effect is?

readme 10 years ago

According to science, they may...

According to my personal experience, they definitely do.

  • cpncrunch 10 years ago

    Care to explain further?