Free speech absolutism misses the forest for the trees. Free speech isn't the Ur-state of a just society, it's a means to an end, and the end is the reduction of suffering.
When free speech reduces suffering, it's a good tool and should be applied. When free speech increases suffering -- and there can be no doubt that G*b increases suffering -- then it's inappropriate. Consequently, this is a Bad Post, and a really Bad Look, from Epik.
This is reasonable logic at face value, but it fails to account for the fact that many segments of society disagree on what is and is not inflicting suffering on society. Plenty of States seem to think that BLM inflicts suffering, and have attempted to curb it with "Blue Lives Matter" legislation. Some people think that abortion is suffering tantamount to murder. A few have even been willing to commit acts of violence in an attempt to curb it - it's not far fetched to think that many would try and censor pro-choice speech. Saying that we should tolerate speech, except for bad speech is not supporting free speech. Who knows when the censor will decide that your views inflict suffering?
If we don't trust a democracy to enact reasonable censorship (outside of narrow cases like issuing credible snd specific threats, breaching classified secrets, etc.) then why should we trust private corporations accountable to no one but their shareholders?
> This . . . fails to account for the fact that many segments of society disagree on what is and is not inflicting suffering on society.
That's fine, we can hash it out. Throwing up our hands at even the concept of ethical judgment is both an abdication of our moral responsibility, and ceding the playing field to the worst among us.
No, your moral responsibility is to counter hate with love, understanding, and education. If all you do is burn any words you don't like then you can't win; all you can do is hide the problem.
Nobody is burning words. We are collectively stopping inarguably deleterious hate from spreading, by removing the soap box and megaphone.
And, "hiding the problem" in this way, de-platforming brokers of hate, does work. Hateful people aren't born, they're bred, and platforms like G*b are how it happens.
Your perspective on how to best counter hate is anachronistic and counter-effective.
Is deplatforming effective at actually making people less hateful? Deplatforming saw a significant rise in the last half decade or so, but it seems to be correlated with a rise in polarization and hate rather than correlated against it. Case studies like Reddit's subreddit bans only measured the attitudes within their own platform, rather than in society as a whole. On the whole, I'm skeptical of the claim that a society can censor itself out of a disgruntled segment of the population, and it potentially risks reinforcing radical views (e.g. people pointing to the deplatforming of Gab as proof of conspiracies theories that some groups' manipulation of society).
How often have you found yourself changing your views after, say, you get banned from a forum for speaking your mind?
The parent comment is pointing out that taking away the megaphone seems to be doing the opposite. Year over year things seem to be becoming more and more polarized. When, with all this deplatforming companies have been doing, it seems to be having no impact at all.
It brings legitimacy to some groups because of reasoning not to dissimilar from "To learn who rules over you, simply find out who you are not allowed to criticize" or, for conspiracy theorists, "they want to hide the truth!"
Not to mention it helps legitimize majority censorship over a minority. I'm sure that'll never come back to bite anyone in the ass in the future when they find themselves no longer in the majority.
@sagichmal
>Yes. Reddit has the latest real-world example, as far as I know, and the data to back it up.
No, they have data that these bans make Reddit "less toxic" for whatever definition it is that they used for "toxic", a term I think is too loosely defined. Not the internet as a whole and not that the group banned ceases to exist. Reddit's study was just "if you take out some of the garbage that has piled up the pile becomes smaller".
E: The study was done to show "If you just ban or quarantine a subreddit they'll make a new one, so it doesn't solve anything." is wrong. But, for example, I'd be interested in if banning a subreddit increases the popularity of alternatives like Voat. Which is much harder to measure without access to the statistics for alternative sites.
I don't think it's a fair conclusion to draw that deplatforming doesn't work. The fact that things are still getting worse isn't anything like solid evidence for that—I mean, just because a bunch of places have taken platforms away from alt-right Nazi mouthpieces doesn't mean they don't still have places to speak. In part because of logic like yours, actually.
Regarding "majority censorship"...yeah, I'm really not going to worry too much about whether the Nazis will feel justified or not in suppressing my free speech because of my suppression of theirs if they manage to truly take over. Because I think I'll have worse things to worry about in a situation like that. Because of the Nazis that are in charge in that situation. (Also because I don't think they'll think twice about suppressing my free speech if they manage to get in charge. The idea that the alt-right is genuinely composed primarily of free-speech maximalists, as opposed to simply saying what will let them continue to spread hate, seems to me to be naïve.)
And regarding banning people from mainstream platforms causing them to migrate to niche platforms: Good. Isolate them. Let them know that society does not want them as long as they espouse and spread these views.
Because all they have to do to become accepted again is to stop spreading hateful views.
The people they preach hate against? They have no recourse. They can't change the colour of their skin, their sexuality, or their gender.
Who was talking about neo-nazis gaining power? The pendulum doesn't need to swing in only two directions. Any power given to a governing body (be it government or literally country-sized corporations) to control the speech of the people will not be something relinquished without a fight. I think it is incredibly short-sighted to reach for such a drastic solution simply because it is the most convenient solution at the time. The PATRIOT and FREEDOM Acts are perfect examples of such overreach and practically every government on Earth has a good example of similar overreach given to them by the governed population at some point in time.
Deplatforming gives them a more powerful rhetoric to use for sympathetic ears wherever they do end up finding ears - and they will find somewhere willing to take their money at some point. "The ${whatevers} are trying to keep us down. They go after our advertisers, after our living. They don't want the truth that we preach to be heard. They do everything in their power to prevent you from knowing the truth but I won't be stopped. Yadda yadda yadda." is a bit more convincing and trivially provable than the usual drivel they come up with. Moving things into the dark where you can't watch it is going to make it more dangerous, not less. It doesn't get rid of it - it just removes it from your view. The equivalent of closing your eyes and hoping the monster goes away.
> Is deplatforming effective at actually making people less hateful?
Yes. Reddit has the latest real-world example, as far as I know, and the data to back it up. See also Yontan Zounger's writings about the role of moderation on sites like YouTube.
Reddit's study was limited to their platform. It demonstrated that censoring hateful speech on Reddit led to les hateful speech on Reddit - not that it reduced hateful thought in society as a whole.
Sure, but it is not evidence that this deplatforming actually resulted in reduced adoption of hateful views - only that these views were shared on Reddit less frequently. It may be a good result, but it is not evidence that deplatforming actually reduces these views in society as a whole, which is what the above comment claimed.
Sure, but the point is that judgement should be made by democratic systems of justice, not corporations motivated primarily by profit. And the law can be used to punish people who seek to inflict suffering with their speech. The threshold may be higher than you may prefer, but it does exist. Otherwise, the rules of censorship are going to be made to maximize profit for the censors, not work on society's best interest.
In other words, what I'm saying is less whether we should or shouldn't alter our rules on free speech. If we want to restrict or repeal the first Amendment, we have a process to do that democratically. What I am pointing out with this second comment is that letting corporations censor us is not saying, "we can hash it out." It's saying, "we can let corporations hash it out, and keep our fingers crossed that they're acting in our best interest."
> I'd also say in a healthy society you should be seeing a larger spectrum of ideas and more things you disagree with.
Nothing is gained, by any one or in any sense, by exposure to the idea of (say) antisemitism. I'm not made better or more resilient by seeing it expressed in the open; Jews aren't made better or stronger by having to face it; those who perpetrate it aren't made lesser or more pathetic by having their views "exposed to sunlight". It strictly makes our society worse. We don't need to grit our teeth and endure its presence in deference to the abstract and false optima of "free speech". We can, and indeed are ethically obliged to, recognize it as deleterious to civil society, and use the levers of power that we the people have to quietly, powerfully, and unapologetically say: this is not something that we tolerate.
But once you ban antisemitism (or racism, sexism, etc.) it becomes possible to censor ideas simply by labeling as such, even when such a label is inappropriate.
> We can, and indeed are ethically obliged to, recognize it as deleterious to civil society, and use the levers of power that we the people have to quietly, powerfully, and unapologetically say: this is not something that we tolerate.
I suspect that among "we the people" the position you advocate for is in the minority, even among the populations you feel you are protecting.
> But once you ban antisemitism (or racism, sexism, etc.) it becomes possible to censor ideas simply by labeling as such, even when such a label is inappropriate.
This is transparently specious reasoning, because it can be used without modification to delegitimize any law or restriction.
It's OK to say action X is appropriate in context A but not in context B. It's OK to legislate on those differences, even if the difference between A and B is not always perfectly discernable. We can deal with that ambiguity as a species. Not always perfectly, but that's OK. As long as we're always reducing suffering, or trying to, we're making forward progress.
It seems to me that using a few isolated incidents to push for widespread censorship and financial excommunication is exactly missing the forest for the trees.
Furthermore, even if you think this is a principled stand, how does that justify censoring the discussion itself?
Appealing to an axiomatic consensus that this is a "bad post" and a "bad look" is just populism in disguise. There is no doubt that freedom necessarily increases suffering too, as it provides more opportunity for abuse, but we generally accept this, the same way we accept that having a Justice system opens the door to malicious prosecution or perps walking free.
It takes a special kind of arrogance to think you can judge adequately what the second and third order effects of a policy will be, and even more arrogance that you know better than centuries of enlightenment values.
> It seems to me that using a few isolated incidents to push for widespread censorship
Nobody is pushing for widespread censorship. We are de-platforming specific sites that breed hate, which is our ethical responsibility as a moral species.
> Nobody is pushing for widespread censorship. We are de-platforming specific sites that breed hate
Excuse me, but what kind of Orwellian doublespeak is this? How is de-platforming sites NOT censorship? And since you seem to want every registrar to join in the de-platforming, how is it not widespread?
"Nobody is pushing for genocide. We are removing specific populations that harm society."
Or "Nobody is pushing for widespread censorship of birth control methods. We are restricting the distribution of specific material that is harmful to the fabric of society."
> How is de-platforming sites NOT censorship? And since you seem to want every registrar to join in the de-platforming, how is it not widespread?
I'm strongly advocating for the de-platforming (removal of soap boxes and megaphones) for antisemitic hate speech in all possible circumstances. This is censorship in the narrowest possible sense only, neither general nor widespread.
Gab's issue (as far as I can tell) is that they have issues curbing explicitly illegal behavior (such threats of violence).
But your view on free speech as it relates to suffering is nebulous and myopic.
The crux of free speech is this: do we trust people to judge the words and ideas of others for themselves, or do we not?
If you believe that you have the capacity (and responsibility) to judge ideas for yourself, then you must grant other people the right to express those ideas.
> The crux of free speech is this: do we trust people to judge the words and ideas of others for themselves, or do we not?
This is a free-speech-centric view of the world, and my claim is that this is (at least) an insufficient, and (at most) the wrong perspective for shaping society. The correct and highest thing to optimize for is not the maximization of free speech, but the minimization of suffering.
Of course, such calculations of suffering are invariably nebulous and highly subjective.
The question is, in your pursuit of the ideal society, will you allow the general population the dignity of their own rational minds? Or will you deny them even that?
Every optimization problem has its boundary conditions. Do you know what yours are?
> The question is, in your pursuit of the ideal society, will you allow the general population the dignity of their own rational minds? Or will you deny them even that?
Stop generalizing and stop grandstanding. I'm not talking about denying human beings autonomy or freedom of mind. I'm talking about de-platforming agents of hate and intolerance. The distance between the latter and the former is the width of an ocean, not a three-foot slippery-slope, and we can (and are ethically obliged to) do things to stop the one without inevitably leading to the other.
> The distance between the latter and the former is the width of an ocean, not a three-foot slippery-slope, and we can (and are ethically obliged to) do things to stop the one without inevitably leading to the other.
And yet people who push for de-platforming fail to make the distinction on a regular basis. It's not so much a slippery slope as a motte-and-bailey.
> The correct and highest thing to optimize for is not the maximization of free speech, but the minimization of suffering.
Why should we minimize suffering? Should we get rid of all pointed knives and force the world to eat their steak with plastic cutlery? Then again, steak causes it's own suffering, maybe we should feed the world with baby food.
What does it mean to suffer? Is losing a sparring match suffering? Is coming in last place in a race suffering? What about when someone calls me ugly or fat? What if someone really doesn't care for cats?
Why do you have some special right to design my world? What if instead I got to design yours?
I think my shape for society is better than yours, objectively better, better in the ethical and practical sense, and every other sense besides. I'm laying out my reasoning for why it is I think that, and you can agree or you can disagree.
We can both lay out our reasoning, and our conversation can be read by other people, and they can think about which version of society they'd prefer to live in, and they can work to make that idea a reality, too, if they like.
I hope you have sufficient force to back up your desires then. The problem with any attempt at Utopia is that it becomes fascism, and fascism can only be maintained by force - which means suffering.
> I hope you have sufficient force to back up your desires
I don't need force. I just need to present my worldview in a way that's compelling to the peanut gallery. If I do a good job, I can convince them, and with luck, some of them can begin advocating for the same, more-ethical worldview I'm hoping for. Together, we comprise society, and can shape society in our image.
> they can work to make that idea a reality, too, if they like.
Do you believe this can be done without coercing some people to modify their behavior that would otherwise not harm others under threat of violence?
That's the crux of my issue with this sort of thing - it's all well and good to hold a position and want to convince others through discourse; it's quite another to pass laws to codify that position so others are forced to live under them.
By reducing the totality of the human experience of suffering to a single quantity, you give your ethical framework the patina of objectivity. However, without an instrument that could actually measure this quantity, any governance structure based on your framework would be at the mercy of sophists, pity mongers, and empathy traps.
> However, without an instrument that could actually measure this quantity, any governance structure based on your framework would be at the mercy of . . .
All systems -- government, financial, computer -- are social systems, in that they're built with human beings as the foundation, and not the other way around.
Because humans are subjective, squishy, and imprecise, it follows naturally and unavoidably that systems built on top of us need to accommodate those properties as invariants. They should not (because they can not) presume their foundation as some kind of objective, fixed, precise spherical cow of uniform density.
Yes, measurement of suffering is subjective. No, that's not a reason to avoid doing it. It's precisely that subjectivity which makes the systems built on top of it sound.
People don't care about your claims - you want to change fundamental parts of society for a view that perhaps isn't that well thought out. Until your claim is virtually everyone's then assume that many people that came before us with different views than yours on how to "shape societies" have though their things through and conceivably had defensible philosophical positions and benevolent motivations behind them. There's a reason why ACLU fought and fights its battles, sometimes defending deplorable groups like KKK, it's not because they above all else favor obscenities.
> but the minimization of suffering.
All parties everywhere have in some way claimed they are in favor of that. But you wouldn't want other parties, who clearly don't know how to "minimize suffering" properly, minimize your ability to proselytize on HN and elsewhere how to truly minimize suffering. So why should we let you minimize our ability to spread our views on that, as clearly we don't all agree that you know much about minimizing suffering?
> you wouldn't want other parties . . . minimize your ability to proselytize on HN and elsewhere
You are trying to conflate the words I've written here with antisemitism, by claiming they are both opinions. But this is reducto ad absurdum, both disingenuous and wrong. There is a clear difference between the two, an ocean of difference, which human beings are perfectly equipped to understand. It is possible to say "we don't tolerate antisemitism" and "we do tolerate pontificating about more just social contracts" concurrently. There is nothing impossible, or even difficult, about this.
Which words? I'm confident you misunderstood something.
> both disingenuous
Throughout this thread you've been very creative in pissing people off. Don't assume malice in other people's positions, it's uncouth.
Here's an ingenuous question - god forbid saudis ever did something objectionable, would my perhaps justified complaints be filed under banned antiwahabbist speech? If we start bartering on speech I doubt there wouldn't be endless streams of money to minimize their suffering and indignation.
> It is possible to say
It's possible to say that for now. I doubt it will be for long after bartering starts. Just look at the current environment and parties that are on the rise, do you think they look like they would favor any pontification that go against them if they had any choice?
> Throughout this thread you've been very creative in pissing people off.
I haven't pissed anyone off. I'm presenting and substantiating an ethical worldview based on the minimization of suffering, and deconstructing the unethical worldview based on the maximization of free speech.
> Don't assume malice in other people's positions, it's uncouth.
I'm not assuming anything about intent, I'm speaking directly to consequence. When you write
> But you wouldn't want other parties, who clearly don't know how to "minimize suffering" properly, minimize your ability to proselytize on HN and elsewhere how to truly minimize suffering. So why should we let you minimize our ability to spread our views on that, as clearly we don't all agree that you know much about minimizing suffering?
you are equivocating "[my] ability to proselytize [a worldview based on minimizing suffering] on HN and elsewhere" to someone else's "ability to spread" antisemitism, which is obviously and transparently disingenuous.
You accused me of being disingenuous. I'm sure your radical views irritate other people as well.
> minimization of suffering
Now I'm starting to think you are trolling. Me and others have pointed out that this is a egregiously nebulous thing to say. People who say that they stand for minimization of suffering are also the same type of people who say they are for all the things that are good without ever elucidating what their idea of good is. Pol Pot probably said he was for minimization of suffering.
> you are equivocating "[my] ability to proselytize [a worldview based on minimizing suffering] on HN and elsewhere" to someone else's "ability to spread" antisemitism, which is obviously and transparently disingenuous.
It's hard to play mental forensics of what went through your mind. I'm not. I'm not saying there's equivalency, I think you misunderstood me because you are under impression that you can control or predict what people will decide is an acceptable speech. If you could control that then of course sign me up for no antisemitizem and all the proselytization.
And to repeat, I merely stated that you probably don't trust us to be your moral authority and we reciprocally don't trust you to be moral authority for us.
Furthermore, realization that we can't agree on any moral authority is reflected in free speech protections and democratic system itself. Again, unfortunate side-effect of free speech laws is that we let people speak obscenities just as it's unfortunate side-effect that we let murderers go if we can't prove their crime beyond reasonable doubt.
> you probably don't trust us to be your moral authority and we reciprocally don't trust you to be moral authority for us.
Yep! That’s correct, and it’s also fine. I believe in my moral authority and I’m working to prostheletize it, and you can do the same, and whoever presents the more compelling case can shape society. Just because we disagree is no reason to declare the whole initiative unsolvable, or invalid. We should both keep advocating for the type of society we want.
> your radical views
The position I’m advocating is explicitly one of moderation: that free speech absolutism isn’t as appropriate a social creed as the much more subjective minimization of suffering. It is strictly less radical than the one it opposes.
>>Gab's issue (as far as I can tell) is that they have issues curbing explicitly illegal behavior (such threats of violence).
Illegal...where? Insulting the king of Thailand is a crime, so is saying bad things about Islam in a lot of countries. Or insulting petty dictators. Not condoning "Go and kill x group" but I'm reminding about the slippery slope
Well, in this case, illegal where the founders happen to live.
I recognize that this doesn't address the philosophical angle to your point. Let me just say that, despite these restrictions on speech, the United States is still generally considered to have "free speech". The question is whether this a true contradiction, or merely a paradox.
In all earnestness I am curious what your definition of "suffering" is.
Is your position that there is physical violence that has been done that would not have been done had Gab not been available? If that is your position do you have evidence to support it?
Or merely that the propagation of certain ideas is itself a form of "suffering"?
First, it's not "nothing [more than] a free speech platform", the owner himself promotes on Twitter the anti-semitic and hate-driven propaganda that defines G-b's archetypal demographic.
Second, in society, at the macro scale, we judge things by their consequence, not their intent. If G-b was a "free speech platform" that only made the news when it put on a three-day symposium for the re-assessment of building height regulations in eastern seaboard urban centers (i.e. actual political positions) then nobody would have any issue with hosting them. But that's not what they are, their effect on society is not benign, and society is correct and just to judge and react to their non-benign influence.
Absolute tolerance isn't a moral precept, it's a peace treaty for a functioning society. Society has both stake and authority to sequester those who subvert it, or use it in bad faith.
In the same way, free speech isn't a moral absolute, it's a means to an end, a tool, useful in some (many!) circumstances, and corruptible in the same way that tolerance can be. Society has both stake and authority to squelch those who abuse it, too.
The owners personal opinions have nothing to do with this.
Gab contains things which people like you don't like. Every website contains contents that other people don't like. Gab is nothing special, besides allowing a bit more of the legal spectrum of ideas.
> Gab contains things which people like you don't like.
“Building heights should be subject to fewer regulations regarding line-of-sight access to green space” is a thing that some people like which I don’t like. Antisemitism is something different in both degree and kind. Putting them into the same bucket, to treat them in the same way, is disingenuous and wrong.
I don't agree. If I genuinely believed all of the claims made about Jews on sites like Gab,I think it would make a great deal of sense to be anti semitic. And I think that these people genuinely believe the things they write. Within that context it seems fairly clear that the solution is not to feed their persecution complex, but to continually engage with them in the most honest way possible
The point of free speech isn't to reduce suffering or make for a more just society (At least in the United States). The point is to protect the natural rights of the individual, and consequently those of minorities, against those of the collective. Not the other way around.
Don't understand the whole "how awful it was for Godaddy to pull out". That's their choice, and Epik have decided to take Gab on, isn't that how the internet works. Freedom of association?
I would however prefer that we live in a society where no one would "welcome" Gab, but we sadly we don't yet; something to work towards I guess.
Interesting excerpt: “Although, I did not take the decision lightly to accept this domain registration, I look forward to partnering with a young, and once brash, CEO who is courageously doing something that looks useful. As I reflect on my own journey as a truth-seeking tech entrepreneur, I have no doubt that Andrew will continue to develop not only as tech entrepreneur but also as a responsible steward — one that can balance bravado with diplomacy and who tempers courage with humility.”
I can understand wanting to uphold free-speech, but to pretend this CEO, Andrew, has some noble goal in mind and who’s company hasn’t been posting Anti-semetic tweets from their company account is sickening to me. It’s certainly about free-speech but let’s not pretend this guy isn’t a bigot.
How is this the right thing? Or the wrong thing for that matter? There are no utilities, common carriers not governmental agencies in play. This is an entirely contractual matter amongst civil parties. Everyone here is free to say what they want (so long as it’s not otherwise illegal), pursue a contractual agreement and engage (or not) the meta conversation regarding the context of the transaction.
Should this go terribly wrong for one party or another (such as, say, hosting speech that is libellous, threatening or otherwise contravened by law) they can engage in that public meta discourse as well. It will certainly be spoken about without or without them.
This is hardly the right thing. It isn’t the wrong thing either. It’s just a thing that, like all decisions, carries risks and responsibilities.
In real life, if somebody borrowed my megaphone and started shouting racist things, I'd have the right to snatch it away because it belongs to me. So the private companies that refused service to Gab were doing nothing wrong.
Also, just noticed that Epik calls itself the "Swiss Bank of Domains", so they're staying true to their brand I guess.
A private website isn't a megaphone. No one is forcibly making people visit a URL and read their content (Beyond say...spam or clickbait, and in that case, sure, I can sympathize with you). But the internet is a lot more like a library than it is a crowded city street with a megaphone.
You can go your entire life on the internet and not have to read an opposing political viewpoint. Especially if you read curated content from mainstream media outlets that don't allow commenting, voting, and social participation. Or simply skip the comments. It isn't that hard to avoid the "hateful" content.
The internet aspired to be a library, but even libraries are curated. I'm not saying people shouldn't be allowed to say whatever they want to say, but a private company has the right to refuse service to customers who intentionally won't or are unable to meet their terms of service. This has applied to all sorts of things in the past and still does, e.g. filesharing, pornography and music streaming sites.
Also, let's not kid ourselves that the stand that Epik has taken has anything to do with free speech. It's good for their business, just like it's good business for news agencies to have a view point and not remain neutral. People who run torrent and porn sites and companies who host them have used this argument for ages.
I vouched this thread. While I realize it may be upsetting to many, it is still an important discussion to have. Freedom of speech has always been controversial - the ACLU famously defended white supremacists in National Socialist Party of America v. Village of Skokie (1977).
When you restrict freedom of speech for a group you don’t agree with, it leads to a toxic society that only tolerates viewpoints on the whims of the majority of society. This is clearly not what the Founding Fathers intended.
The treatment of Gab is terrifying. It became an easy crux for everyone to publicly hang their disapproval on for easy moral points, and created a chain-reaction where nobody wanted to be the one left holding the bag.
That’s the thing though - you can be restricted by the constraints due a common carrier or you can take your lumps when you offer a haven for speech that, while free, does not come at zero cost.
I find the popularity of the hatred and calls to violence based on which political party or religion you affiliate with hosted on Gab much more terrifying than the possibility that some people are falling on the "wrong" side of the question as to whether such content justifies removal from a platform that is privately managed but widely used in a public fashion. I think both problems are important and complex, but I also think the former overshadows the latter dramatically, and that informs my opinion when the two issues collide.
Thanks, I noticed this post was briefly flagged and was disappointed. Why some people think we shouldn't even been discussing free speech on the Internet is baffling.
It's not at all baffling when you realize it's really just a bunch of complaining about how tough it is to be in the bigot business (non-bigot businesses don't want to do business with your bigot business!) with free-speech lipstick applied. Sure, the bigot business is probably a tough business to be in. There are a lot of other tough businesses that are far more interesting to talk about.
The ACLU defended the Nazis in Skokie because they were denied permission to march on public streets. They were right to do so. But, contrary to a widely-held belief on HN, "popular" private property in the US is not generally required to be available for protest, let alone for someone to set up their own shop peddling their messages.
Gab's complaint isn't that they're being "denied a platform" --- though that's one of several falsehoods they're surely like you to believe. It's that they're being denied access to the most convenient and cost-effective platforms. Essentially, they're demanding FRAND access to cloud providers for white supremacist Twitter. And FRAND isn't the default anywhere in commerce, let alone for white supremacists.
Someone was always going to take Gab's money. Even Stormfront, which is simply Gab without the pretend rules about harassment, is still up and running. As well, it was always going to come out which providers are willing to take Gab's money, and we'll see what impact that has on them in the market, when other people exercise their freedom of speech and association and refuse to do business with those providers.
Your comment suggests that the likes of Twitter, Facebook and Instagram be wiped off the net for their part in providing accounts to multiple rapists murderers and terrorists.
Let's get rid of all social media, including this site, you know, just to be sure!
You are free to say what you want. You are not free to the stage upon which you pronounce your bullshit from. If you walk into a Taco Bell and start screaming at the top of your lungs that liberals are hosting satanic child abuse rings in the basement, I fully expect the manager to kick you out and ban you. Now replace "Taco Bell" with Gab. How is that different?
Should the landlord be able to terminate the lease of the Taco Bell in the event that they don't kick people out efficiently and effectively enough? Should it be assumed that Taco Bell agrees with the statements of this person who came in screaming?
Free speech absolutism misses the forest for the trees. Free speech isn't the Ur-state of a just society, it's a means to an end, and the end is the reduction of suffering.
When free speech reduces suffering, it's a good tool and should be applied. When free speech increases suffering -- and there can be no doubt that G*b increases suffering -- then it's inappropriate. Consequently, this is a Bad Post, and a really Bad Look, from Epik.
Increases the suffering of who exactly, and by what measure?
This is reasonable logic at face value, but it fails to account for the fact that many segments of society disagree on what is and is not inflicting suffering on society. Plenty of States seem to think that BLM inflicts suffering, and have attempted to curb it with "Blue Lives Matter" legislation. Some people think that abortion is suffering tantamount to murder. A few have even been willing to commit acts of violence in an attempt to curb it - it's not far fetched to think that many would try and censor pro-choice speech. Saying that we should tolerate speech, except for bad speech is not supporting free speech. Who knows when the censor will decide that your views inflict suffering?
If we don't trust a democracy to enact reasonable censorship (outside of narrow cases like issuing credible snd specific threats, breaching classified secrets, etc.) then why should we trust private corporations accountable to no one but their shareholders?
> This . . . fails to account for the fact that many segments of society disagree on what is and is not inflicting suffering on society.
That's fine, we can hash it out. Throwing up our hands at even the concept of ethical judgment is both an abdication of our moral responsibility, and ceding the playing field to the worst among us.
No, your moral responsibility is to counter hate with love, understanding, and education. If all you do is burn any words you don't like then you can't win; all you can do is hide the problem.
> If all you do is burn any words you don't like
Nobody is burning words. We are collectively stopping inarguably deleterious hate from spreading, by removing the soap box and megaphone.
And, "hiding the problem" in this way, de-platforming brokers of hate, does work. Hateful people aren't born, they're bred, and platforms like G*b are how it happens.
Your perspective on how to best counter hate is anachronistic and counter-effective.
Is deplatforming effective at actually making people less hateful? Deplatforming saw a significant rise in the last half decade or so, but it seems to be correlated with a rise in polarization and hate rather than correlated against it. Case studies like Reddit's subreddit bans only measured the attitudes within their own platform, rather than in society as a whole. On the whole, I'm skeptical of the claim that a society can censor itself out of a disgruntled segment of the population, and it potentially risks reinforcing radical views (e.g. people pointing to the deplatforming of Gab as proof of conspiracies theories that some groups' manipulation of society).
How often have you found yourself changing your views after, say, you get banned from a forum for speaking your mind?
The point of deplatforming isn't to make the person you take the megaphone away from change his mind.
It's to make sure he can't change the mind of billions by using that megaphone.
If it's an idea that billions of people like, should someone in power be able to suppress it?
@danaris
The parent comment is pointing out that taking away the megaphone seems to be doing the opposite. Year over year things seem to be becoming more and more polarized. When, with all this deplatforming companies have been doing, it seems to be having no impact at all.
It brings legitimacy to some groups because of reasoning not to dissimilar from "To learn who rules over you, simply find out who you are not allowed to criticize" or, for conspiracy theorists, "they want to hide the truth!"
Not to mention it helps legitimize majority censorship over a minority. I'm sure that'll never come back to bite anyone in the ass in the future when they find themselves no longer in the majority.
@sagichmal
>Yes. Reddit has the latest real-world example, as far as I know, and the data to back it up.
No, they have data that these bans make Reddit "less toxic" for whatever definition it is that they used for "toxic", a term I think is too loosely defined. Not the internet as a whole and not that the group banned ceases to exist. Reddit's study was just "if you take out some of the garbage that has piled up the pile becomes smaller".
E: The study was done to show "If you just ban or quarantine a subreddit they'll make a new one, so it doesn't solve anything." is wrong. But, for example, I'd be interested in if banning a subreddit increases the popularity of alternatives like Voat. Which is much harder to measure without access to the statistics for alternative sites.
I don't think it's a fair conclusion to draw that deplatforming doesn't work. The fact that things are still getting worse isn't anything like solid evidence for that—I mean, just because a bunch of places have taken platforms away from alt-right Nazi mouthpieces doesn't mean they don't still have places to speak. In part because of logic like yours, actually.
Regarding "majority censorship"...yeah, I'm really not going to worry too much about whether the Nazis will feel justified or not in suppressing my free speech because of my suppression of theirs if they manage to truly take over. Because I think I'll have worse things to worry about in a situation like that. Because of the Nazis that are in charge in that situation. (Also because I don't think they'll think twice about suppressing my free speech if they manage to get in charge. The idea that the alt-right is genuinely composed primarily of free-speech maximalists, as opposed to simply saying what will let them continue to spread hate, seems to me to be naïve.)
And regarding banning people from mainstream platforms causing them to migrate to niche platforms: Good. Isolate them. Let them know that society does not want them as long as they espouse and spread these views.
Because all they have to do to become accepted again is to stop spreading hateful views.
The people they preach hate against? They have no recourse. They can't change the colour of their skin, their sexuality, or their gender.
Who was talking about neo-nazis gaining power? The pendulum doesn't need to swing in only two directions. Any power given to a governing body (be it government or literally country-sized corporations) to control the speech of the people will not be something relinquished without a fight. I think it is incredibly short-sighted to reach for such a drastic solution simply because it is the most convenient solution at the time. The PATRIOT and FREEDOM Acts are perfect examples of such overreach and practically every government on Earth has a good example of similar overreach given to them by the governed population at some point in time.
Deplatforming gives them a more powerful rhetoric to use for sympathetic ears wherever they do end up finding ears - and they will find somewhere willing to take their money at some point. "The ${whatevers} are trying to keep us down. They go after our advertisers, after our living. They don't want the truth that we preach to be heard. They do everything in their power to prevent you from knowing the truth but I won't be stopped. Yadda yadda yadda." is a bit more convincing and trivially provable than the usual drivel they come up with. Moving things into the dark where you can't watch it is going to make it more dangerous, not less. It doesn't get rid of it - it just removes it from your view. The equivalent of closing your eyes and hoping the monster goes away.
> Is deplatforming effective at actually making people less hateful?
Yes. Reddit has the latest real-world example, as far as I know, and the data to back it up. See also Yontan Zounger's writings about the role of moderation on sites like YouTube.
Reddit's study was limited to their platform. It demonstrated that censoring hateful speech on Reddit led to les hateful speech on Reddit - not that it reduced hateful thought in society as a whole.
> censoring hateful speech on Reddit led to les hateful speech on Reddit
Sounds like a great and repeatable outcome.
Sure, but it is not evidence that this deplatforming actually resulted in reduced adoption of hateful views - only that these views were shared on Reddit less frequently. It may be a good result, but it is not evidence that deplatforming actually reduces these views in society as a whole, which is what the above comment claimed.
> these views were shared on Reddit less frequently
Again, great! Let’s repeat this outcome for as many platforms as possible.
See: NIMBY and the homeless epidemic
Sure, but the point is that judgement should be made by democratic systems of justice, not corporations motivated primarily by profit. And the law can be used to punish people who seek to inflict suffering with their speech. The threshold may be higher than you may prefer, but it does exist. Otherwise, the rules of censorship are going to be made to maximize profit for the censors, not work on society's best interest.
In other words, what I'm saying is less whether we should or shouldn't alter our rules on free speech. If we want to restrict or repeal the first Amendment, we have a process to do that democratically. What I am pointing out with this second comment is that letting corporations censor us is not saying, "we can hash it out." It's saying, "we can let corporations hash it out, and keep our fingers crossed that they're acting in our best interest."
I'd also say in a healthy society you should be seeing a larger spectrum of ideas and more things you disagree with.
> I'd also say in a healthy society you should be seeing a larger spectrum of ideas and more things you disagree with.
Nothing is gained, by any one or in any sense, by exposure to the idea of (say) antisemitism. I'm not made better or more resilient by seeing it expressed in the open; Jews aren't made better or stronger by having to face it; those who perpetrate it aren't made lesser or more pathetic by having their views "exposed to sunlight". It strictly makes our society worse. We don't need to grit our teeth and endure its presence in deference to the abstract and false optima of "free speech". We can, and indeed are ethically obliged to, recognize it as deleterious to civil society, and use the levers of power that we the people have to quietly, powerfully, and unapologetically say: this is not something that we tolerate.
But once you ban antisemitism (or racism, sexism, etc.) it becomes possible to censor ideas simply by labeling as such, even when such a label is inappropriate.
> We can, and indeed are ethically obliged to, recognize it as deleterious to civil society, and use the levers of power that we the people have to quietly, powerfully, and unapologetically say: this is not something that we tolerate.
I suspect that among "we the people" the position you advocate for is in the minority, even among the populations you feel you are protecting.
> But once you ban antisemitism (or racism, sexism, etc.) it becomes possible to censor ideas simply by labeling as such, even when such a label is inappropriate.
This is transparently specious reasoning, because it can be used without modification to delegitimize any law or restriction.
It's OK to say action X is appropriate in context A but not in context B. It's OK to legislate on those differences, even if the difference between A and B is not always perfectly discernable. We can deal with that ambiguity as a species. Not always perfectly, but that's OK. As long as we're always reducing suffering, or trying to, we're making forward progress.
It seems to me that using a few isolated incidents to push for widespread censorship and financial excommunication is exactly missing the forest for the trees.
Furthermore, even if you think this is a principled stand, how does that justify censoring the discussion itself?
Appealing to an axiomatic consensus that this is a "bad post" and a "bad look" is just populism in disguise. There is no doubt that freedom necessarily increases suffering too, as it provides more opportunity for abuse, but we generally accept this, the same way we accept that having a Justice system opens the door to malicious prosecution or perps walking free.
It takes a special kind of arrogance to think you can judge adequately what the second and third order effects of a policy will be, and even more arrogance that you know better than centuries of enlightenment values.
> It seems to me that using a few isolated incidents to push for widespread censorship
Nobody is pushing for widespread censorship. We are de-platforming specific sites that breed hate, which is our ethical responsibility as a moral species.
Which social media platforms don't breed hate?
> Nobody is pushing for widespread censorship. We are de-platforming specific sites that breed hate
Excuse me, but what kind of Orwellian doublespeak is this? How is de-platforming sites NOT censorship? And since you seem to want every registrar to join in the de-platforming, how is it not widespread?
"Nobody is pushing for genocide. We are removing specific populations that harm society."
Or "Nobody is pushing for widespread censorship of birth control methods. We are restricting the distribution of specific material that is harmful to the fabric of society."
> How is de-platforming sites NOT censorship? And since you seem to want every registrar to join in the de-platforming, how is it not widespread?
I'm strongly advocating for the de-platforming (removal of soap boxes and megaphones) for antisemitic hate speech in all possible circumstances. This is censorship in the narrowest possible sense only, neither general nor widespread.
Gab's issue (as far as I can tell) is that they have issues curbing explicitly illegal behavior (such threats of violence).
But your view on free speech as it relates to suffering is nebulous and myopic.
The crux of free speech is this: do we trust people to judge the words and ideas of others for themselves, or do we not?
If you believe that you have the capacity (and responsibility) to judge ideas for yourself, then you must grant other people the right to express those ideas.
> The crux of free speech is this: do we trust people to judge the words and ideas of others for themselves, or do we not?
This is a free-speech-centric view of the world, and my claim is that this is (at least) an insufficient, and (at most) the wrong perspective for shaping society. The correct and highest thing to optimize for is not the maximization of free speech, but the minimization of suffering.
Of course, such calculations of suffering are invariably nebulous and highly subjective.
The question is, in your pursuit of the ideal society, will you allow the general population the dignity of their own rational minds? Or will you deny them even that?
Every optimization problem has its boundary conditions. Do you know what yours are?
> The question is, in your pursuit of the ideal society, will you allow the general population the dignity of their own rational minds? Or will you deny them even that?
Stop generalizing and stop grandstanding. I'm not talking about denying human beings autonomy or freedom of mind. I'm talking about de-platforming agents of hate and intolerance. The distance between the latter and the former is the width of an ocean, not a three-foot slippery-slope, and we can (and are ethically obliged to) do things to stop the one without inevitably leading to the other.
> The distance between the latter and the former is the width of an ocean, not a three-foot slippery-slope, and we can (and are ethically obliged to) do things to stop the one without inevitably leading to the other.
And yet people who push for de-platforming fail to make the distinction on a regular basis. It's not so much a slippery slope as a motte-and-bailey.
> the wrong perspective for shaping society
Who says I want your shape for my society?
> The correct and highest thing to optimize for is not the maximization of free speech, but the minimization of suffering.
Why should we minimize suffering? Should we get rid of all pointed knives and force the world to eat their steak with plastic cutlery? Then again, steak causes it's own suffering, maybe we should feed the world with baby food.
What does it mean to suffer? Is losing a sparring match suffering? Is coming in last place in a race suffering? What about when someone calls me ugly or fat? What if someone really doesn't care for cats?
Why do you have some special right to design my world? What if instead I got to design yours?
> Who says I want your shape for my society?
I don't care what you want.
I think my shape for society is better than yours, objectively better, better in the ethical and practical sense, and every other sense besides. I'm laying out my reasoning for why it is I think that, and you can agree or you can disagree.
We can both lay out our reasoning, and our conversation can be read by other people, and they can think about which version of society they'd prefer to live in, and they can work to make that idea a reality, too, if they like.
> I don't care what you want.
I hope you have sufficient force to back up your desires then. The problem with any attempt at Utopia is that it becomes fascism, and fascism can only be maintained by force - which means suffering.
Force is always met with force.
> I hope you have sufficient force to back up your desires
I don't need force. I just need to present my worldview in a way that's compelling to the peanut gallery. If I do a good job, I can convince them, and with luck, some of them can begin advocating for the same, more-ethical worldview I'm hoping for. Together, we comprise society, and can shape society in our image.
> they can work to make that idea a reality, too, if they like.
Do you believe this can be done without coercing some people to modify their behavior that would otherwise not harm others under threat of violence?
That's the crux of my issue with this sort of thing - it's all well and good to hold a position and want to convince others through discourse; it's quite another to pass laws to codify that position so others are forced to live under them.
By reducing the totality of the human experience of suffering to a single quantity, you give your ethical framework the patina of objectivity. However, without an instrument that could actually measure this quantity, any governance structure based on your framework would be at the mercy of sophists, pity mongers, and empathy traps.
> However, without an instrument that could actually measure this quantity, any governance structure based on your framework would be at the mercy of . . .
All systems -- government, financial, computer -- are social systems, in that they're built with human beings as the foundation, and not the other way around.
Because humans are subjective, squishy, and imprecise, it follows naturally and unavoidably that systems built on top of us need to accommodate those properties as invariants. They should not (because they can not) presume their foundation as some kind of objective, fixed, precise spherical cow of uniform density.
Yes, measurement of suffering is subjective. No, that's not a reason to avoid doing it. It's precisely that subjectivity which makes the systems built on top of it sound.
> my claim is that
People don't care about your claims - you want to change fundamental parts of society for a view that perhaps isn't that well thought out. Until your claim is virtually everyone's then assume that many people that came before us with different views than yours on how to "shape societies" have though their things through and conceivably had defensible philosophical positions and benevolent motivations behind them. There's a reason why ACLU fought and fights its battles, sometimes defending deplorable groups like KKK, it's not because they above all else favor obscenities.
> but the minimization of suffering.
All parties everywhere have in some way claimed they are in favor of that. But you wouldn't want other parties, who clearly don't know how to "minimize suffering" properly, minimize your ability to proselytize on HN and elsewhere how to truly minimize suffering. So why should we let you minimize our ability to spread our views on that, as clearly we don't all agree that you know much about minimizing suffering?
> you wouldn't want other parties . . . minimize your ability to proselytize on HN and elsewhere
You are trying to conflate the words I've written here with antisemitism, by claiming they are both opinions. But this is reducto ad absurdum, both disingenuous and wrong. There is a clear difference between the two, an ocean of difference, which human beings are perfectly equipped to understand. It is possible to say "we don't tolerate antisemitism" and "we do tolerate pontificating about more just social contracts" concurrently. There is nothing impossible, or even difficult, about this.
> the words I've written
Which words? I'm confident you misunderstood something.
> both disingenuous
Throughout this thread you've been very creative in pissing people off. Don't assume malice in other people's positions, it's uncouth.
Here's an ingenuous question - god forbid saudis ever did something objectionable, would my perhaps justified complaints be filed under banned antiwahabbist speech? If we start bartering on speech I doubt there wouldn't be endless streams of money to minimize their suffering and indignation.
> It is possible to say
It's possible to say that for now. I doubt it will be for long after bartering starts. Just look at the current environment and parties that are on the rise, do you think they look like they would favor any pontification that go against them if they had any choice?
> Throughout this thread you've been very creative in pissing people off.
I haven't pissed anyone off. I'm presenting and substantiating an ethical worldview based on the minimization of suffering, and deconstructing the unethical worldview based on the maximization of free speech.
> Don't assume malice in other people's positions, it's uncouth.
I'm not assuming anything about intent, I'm speaking directly to consequence. When you write
> But you wouldn't want other parties, who clearly don't know how to "minimize suffering" properly, minimize your ability to proselytize on HN and elsewhere how to truly minimize suffering. So why should we let you minimize our ability to spread our views on that, as clearly we don't all agree that you know much about minimizing suffering?
you are equivocating "[my] ability to proselytize [a worldview based on minimizing suffering] on HN and elsewhere" to someone else's "ability to spread" antisemitism, which is obviously and transparently disingenuous.
> I haven't pissed anyone off.
You accused me of being disingenuous. I'm sure your radical views irritate other people as well.
> minimization of suffering
Now I'm starting to think you are trolling. Me and others have pointed out that this is a egregiously nebulous thing to say. People who say that they stand for minimization of suffering are also the same type of people who say they are for all the things that are good without ever elucidating what their idea of good is. Pol Pot probably said he was for minimization of suffering.
> you are equivocating "[my] ability to proselytize [a worldview based on minimizing suffering] on HN and elsewhere" to someone else's "ability to spread" antisemitism, which is obviously and transparently disingenuous.
It's hard to play mental forensics of what went through your mind. I'm not. I'm not saying there's equivalency, I think you misunderstood me because you are under impression that you can control or predict what people will decide is an acceptable speech. If you could control that then of course sign me up for no antisemitizem and all the proselytization.
And to repeat, I merely stated that you probably don't trust us to be your moral authority and we reciprocally don't trust you to be moral authority for us.
Furthermore, realization that we can't agree on any moral authority is reflected in free speech protections and democratic system itself. Again, unfortunate side-effect of free speech laws is that we let people speak obscenities just as it's unfortunate side-effect that we let murderers go if we can't prove their crime beyond reasonable doubt.
> you probably don't trust us to be your moral authority and we reciprocally don't trust you to be moral authority for us.
Yep! That’s correct, and it’s also fine. I believe in my moral authority and I’m working to prostheletize it, and you can do the same, and whoever presents the more compelling case can shape society. Just because we disagree is no reason to declare the whole initiative unsolvable, or invalid. We should both keep advocating for the type of society we want.
> your radical views
The position I’m advocating is explicitly one of moderation: that free speech absolutism isn’t as appropriate a social creed as the much more subjective minimization of suffering. It is strictly less radical than the one it opposes.
>>Gab's issue (as far as I can tell) is that they have issues curbing explicitly illegal behavior (such threats of violence).
Illegal...where? Insulting the king of Thailand is a crime, so is saying bad things about Islam in a lot of countries. Or insulting petty dictators. Not condoning "Go and kill x group" but I'm reminding about the slippery slope
Well, in this case, illegal where the founders happen to live.
I recognize that this doesn't address the philosophical angle to your point. Let me just say that, despite these restrictions on speech, the United States is still generally considered to have "free speech". The question is whether this a true contradiction, or merely a paradox.
In all earnestness I am curious what your definition of "suffering" is.
Is your position that there is physical violence that has been done that would not have been done had Gab not been available? If that is your position do you have evidence to support it?
Or merely that the propagation of certain ideas is itself a form of "suffering"?
> and there can be no doubt that G*b increases suffering
It's a free speech platform - nothing else.
You could make similar and even more convincing arguments against facebook, twitter, bread, sugar, smoking, etc...
> It's a free speech platform - nothing else.
First, it's not "nothing [more than] a free speech platform", the owner himself promotes on Twitter the anti-semitic and hate-driven propaganda that defines G-b's archetypal demographic.
Second, in society, at the macro scale, we judge things by their consequence, not their intent. If G-b was a "free speech platform" that only made the news when it put on a three-day symposium for the re-assessment of building height regulations in eastern seaboard urban centers (i.e. actual political positions) then nobody would have any issue with hosting them. But that's not what they are, their effect on society is not benign, and society is correct and just to judge and react to their non-benign influence.
Absolute tolerance isn't a moral precept, it's a peace treaty for a functioning society. Society has both stake and authority to sequester those who subvert it, or use it in bad faith.
In the same way, free speech isn't a moral absolute, it's a means to an end, a tool, useful in some (many!) circumstances, and corruptible in the same way that tolerance can be. Society has both stake and authority to squelch those who abuse it, too.
The owners personal opinions have nothing to do with this.
Gab contains things which people like you don't like. Every website contains contents that other people don't like. Gab is nothing special, besides allowing a bit more of the legal spectrum of ideas.
Again: Gab a free speech platform - nothing else.
> Gab contains things which people like you don't like.
“Building heights should be subject to fewer regulations regarding line-of-sight access to green space” is a thing that some people like which I don’t like. Antisemitism is something different in both degree and kind. Putting them into the same bucket, to treat them in the same way, is disingenuous and wrong.
I don't agree. If I genuinely believed all of the claims made about Jews on sites like Gab,I think it would make a great deal of sense to be anti semitic. And I think that these people genuinely believe the things they write. Within that context it seems fairly clear that the solution is not to feed their persecution complex, but to continually engage with them in the most honest way possible
antisemitism is legal.
antisemitism is as much a part of Gab as other "bad" things are part of Twitter or HN.
> antisemitism is legal
We’re not really talking about legal systems, though, we’re talking about ethical systems, and antisemitism is undoubtedly unethical.
The point of free speech isn't to reduce suffering or make for a more just society (At least in the United States). The point is to protect the natural rights of the individual, and consequently those of minorities, against those of the collective. Not the other way around.
Don't understand the whole "how awful it was for Godaddy to pull out". That's their choice, and Epik have decided to take Gab on, isn't that how the internet works. Freedom of association?
I would however prefer that we live in a society where no one would "welcome" Gab, but we sadly we don't yet; something to work towards I guess.
Interesting excerpt: “Although, I did not take the decision lightly to accept this domain registration, I look forward to partnering with a young, and once brash, CEO who is courageously doing something that looks useful. As I reflect on my own journey as a truth-seeking tech entrepreneur, I have no doubt that Andrew will continue to develop not only as tech entrepreneur but also as a responsible steward — one that can balance bravado with diplomacy and who tempers courage with humility.”
I can understand wanting to uphold free-speech, but to pretend this CEO, Andrew, has some noble goal in mind and who’s company hasn’t been posting Anti-semetic tweets from their company account is sickening to me. It’s certainly about free-speech but let’s not pretend this guy isn’t a bigot.
Don't have to click through to answer that: it got them on the front page of HN.
It is sad how newsworthy doing the right thing is.
How is this the right thing? Or the wrong thing for that matter? There are no utilities, common carriers not governmental agencies in play. This is an entirely contractual matter amongst civil parties. Everyone here is free to say what they want (so long as it’s not otherwise illegal), pursue a contractual agreement and engage (or not) the meta conversation regarding the context of the transaction.
Should this go terribly wrong for one party or another (such as, say, hosting speech that is libellous, threatening or otherwise contravened by law) they can engage in that public meta discourse as well. It will certainly be spoken about without or without them.
This is hardly the right thing. It isn’t the wrong thing either. It’s just a thing that, like all decisions, carries risks and responsibilities.
Arguably big entities which outpace the law have a noblesse oblige to exercise a lightness of authority.
In real life, if somebody borrowed my megaphone and started shouting racist things, I'd have the right to snatch it away because it belongs to me. So the private companies that refused service to Gab were doing nothing wrong.
Also, just noticed that Epik calls itself the "Swiss Bank of Domains", so they're staying true to their brand I guess.
A private website isn't a megaphone. No one is forcibly making people visit a URL and read their content (Beyond say...spam or clickbait, and in that case, sure, I can sympathize with you). But the internet is a lot more like a library than it is a crowded city street with a megaphone.
You can go your entire life on the internet and not have to read an opposing political viewpoint. Especially if you read curated content from mainstream media outlets that don't allow commenting, voting, and social participation. Or simply skip the comments. It isn't that hard to avoid the "hateful" content.
The internet aspired to be a library, but even libraries are curated. I'm not saying people shouldn't be allowed to say whatever they want to say, but a private company has the right to refuse service to customers who intentionally won't or are unable to meet their terms of service. This has applied to all sorts of things in the past and still does, e.g. filesharing, pornography and music streaming sites.
Also, let's not kid ourselves that the stand that Epik has taken has anything to do with free speech. It's good for their business, just like it's good business for news agencies to have a view point and not remain neutral. People who run torrent and porn sites and companies who host them have used this argument for ages.
I vouched this thread. While I realize it may be upsetting to many, it is still an important discussion to have. Freedom of speech has always been controversial - the ACLU famously defended white supremacists in National Socialist Party of America v. Village of Skokie (1977).
When you restrict freedom of speech for a group you don’t agree with, it leads to a toxic society that only tolerates viewpoints on the whims of the majority of society. This is clearly not what the Founding Fathers intended.
The treatment of Gab is terrifying. It became an easy crux for everyone to publicly hang their disapproval on for easy moral points, and created a chain-reaction where nobody wanted to be the one left holding the bag.
That’s the thing though - you can be restricted by the constraints due a common carrier or you can take your lumps when you offer a haven for speech that, while free, does not come at zero cost.
I find the popularity of the hatred and calls to violence based on which political party or religion you affiliate with hosted on Gab much more terrifying than the possibility that some people are falling on the "wrong" side of the question as to whether such content justifies removal from a platform that is privately managed but widely used in a public fashion. I think both problems are important and complex, but I also think the former overshadows the latter dramatically, and that informs my opinion when the two issues collide.
Thanks, I noticed this post was briefly flagged and was disappointed. Why some people think we shouldn't even been discussing free speech on the Internet is baffling.
It's not at all baffling when you realize it's really just a bunch of complaining about how tough it is to be in the bigot business (non-bigot businesses don't want to do business with your bigot business!) with free-speech lipstick applied. Sure, the bigot business is probably a tough business to be in. There are a lot of other tough businesses that are far more interesting to talk about.
The ACLU defended the Nazis in Skokie because they were denied permission to march on public streets. They were right to do so. But, contrary to a widely-held belief on HN, "popular" private property in the US is not generally required to be available for protest, let alone for someone to set up their own shop peddling their messages.
Gab's complaint isn't that they're being "denied a platform" --- though that's one of several falsehoods they're surely like you to believe. It's that they're being denied access to the most convenient and cost-effective platforms. Essentially, they're demanding FRAND access to cloud providers for white supremacist Twitter. And FRAND isn't the default anywhere in commerce, let alone for white supremacists.
Someone was always going to take Gab's money. Even Stormfront, which is simply Gab without the pretend rules about harassment, is still up and running. As well, it was always going to come out which providers are willing to take Gab's money, and we'll see what impact that has on them in the market, when other people exercise their freedom of speech and association and refuse to do business with those providers.
Your comment suggests that the likes of Twitter, Facebook and Instagram be wiped off the net for their part in providing accounts to multiple rapists murderers and terrorists. Let's get rid of all social media, including this site, you know, just to be sure!
You are free to say what you want. You are not free to the stage upon which you pronounce your bullshit from. If you walk into a Taco Bell and start screaming at the top of your lungs that liberals are hosting satanic child abuse rings in the basement, I fully expect the manager to kick you out and ban you. Now replace "Taco Bell" with Gab. How is that different?
Should the landlord be able to terminate the lease of the Taco Bell in the event that they don't kick people out efficiently and effectively enough? Should it be assumed that Taco Bell agrees with the statements of this person who came in screaming?
Depending on the terms of the lease, yes.
No, but if they say similar stuff on their own (i.e. Gab's official Twitter account, may tweets now deleted), you don't have to assume anything.
Can Epik be bullied from others above the stream?