Freaking cool! 1um might seem a lot for today industry standards if we think modern processors and peripherals, still more than adequate for analog stuff (opamps, regulators, matched transistor pairs, VCOs and VCAs, simple glue logic etc.).
I don't know, the Z80 data sheet I briefly skimmed doesn't even seem to mention that detail.
However if this technology can offer what was available in the 70s, and on their site they say it can be used for analog ICs too, it woud seem logic to use it to remake older obsolete chips (how many 6522 and SIDs were fried?), along with some newer versions of older analog chips.
Mask size or fabrication geometry size? I'm guessing you mean the latter. It depends on the generation of these chips (moving to a smaller process) but I know the 6502 used a 10 um process at introduction, and I think the 8080 used a 5 or 6 um process. Don't know about the Z80.
For comparison, the 80386 was fabricated with a 1um process.
I looked at the site and it's cool that that he's not using HF to metal etch. Instead he's using an ammonia and hydrogen peroxide solution. That's a lot safer stuff to handle. That seemed to always be the roadblock to home silicon fabrication: that you needed to use some very toxic stuff to metal etch.
Not a backyard foundry but this guy is attempting to make a "tangible" RISC-V CPU using "As few programmable chips as possible." he wants to use MSI and LSI chips " so things like buffers, flip flops, and so on. "
What you mean "printing"?
From the article: There are 66 individual fabrication steps to make this chip and it takes approximately 12 hours for a full run.
Automate all 66 fabrication steps into a fully integrated device is not exactly trivial.
The most complex parts of phones and computers (e.g., the CPU) are integrated circuits (ICs)[0], which are (nowadays) billions of nanometer-sized transistors on top of a piece of silicon. The way these are made is arguably the most complex, high precision manufacturing process in the world, and is usually done in multi-billion-dollar "fabs" (fabrication plant) by huge companies (e.g., Intel).
Even the most basic IC fabrication, like in the article, absolutely requires maybe ~5-10 complex tools (furnace, sputterer, etc; $1000-$10k each at current eBay prices and very low quality, if you know how to rebuild/fix all of them) and a host of supporting equipment (fume hood for seriously dangerous[1] chemical work, etc). To get reasonable results, you also need to understand the device physics and then test multiple times to get the process right. I have some serious respect for Sam Zeloof of the article for getting this to work: it's at least an order of magnitude more difficult than other home manufacturing (3D printing, woodworking, welding, sewing...), even if you're already an industry expert. And his device used 6 transistors; you'd need to get the transistor manufacturing reliability up significantly to make a useful microprocessor (instead of small analog circuits), which probably starts at several thousand transistors [2].
If (GP post) you want an automated device that makes an IC for you given a digital design file, well, hm. The closest things we have today are companies that manage and run the equipment for you (fabless semiconductor companies (Qualcom, AMD...[3]) give their chip designs to, e.g., TSMC to manufacture). Academic researchers often send parts in together to reduce costs[4], in which case you could get tens of identical (reasonably simple) chips for several thousand dollars. Someone linked to [5], which looks like an attempt at a more open, hobbyist-friendly version of the same thing. I did run across [6] once, which _does_ seem to be attempting to make an easier to use, very small, automated system. I've no idea what their status is.
A desktop device as simple to use as a 3D printer is barely even on the conceptual possibility level at the moment, and then only when people start talking sci-fi self-assembly and molecular nanomanufacturing and a century of R&D.
Leaving it here: https://libresilicon.com
A guy in HK is making a 1um fab with own process and open tooling.
Impressive. In the article he claims to have achieved transistor gate length < 5um (ie 1975 tech level) with test features as small as 2um.
These people are amazing and their efforts are seriously cool. Props to all of them.
Freaking cool! 1um might seem a lot for today industry standards if we think modern processors and peripherals, still more than adequate for analog stuff (opamps, regulators, matched transistor pairs, VCOs and VCAs, simple glue logic etc.).
What was the mask size for the original z80, 6502, and 8080?
I don't know, the Z80 data sheet I briefly skimmed doesn't even seem to mention that detail. However if this technology can offer what was available in the 70s, and on their site they say it can be used for analog ICs too, it woud seem logic to use it to remake older obsolete chips (how many 6522 and SIDs were fried?), along with some newer versions of older analog chips.
Wikipedia says that the 6502 was originally fabbed on a 8 um process with a die size of 16.6mm^2.
Mask size or fabrication geometry size? I'm guessing you mean the latter. It depends on the generation of these chips (moving to a smaller process) but I know the 6502 used a 10 um process at introduction, and I think the 8080 used a 5 or 6 um process. Don't know about the Z80.
For comparison, the 80386 was fabricated with a 1um process.
I looked at the site and it's cool that that he's not using HF to metal etch. Instead he's using an ammonia and hydrogen peroxide solution. That's a lot safer stuff to handle. That seemed to always be the roadblock to home silicon fabrication: that you needed to use some very toxic stuff to metal etch.
HN discussion when this was first posted: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=16955549
https://web.archive.org/web/20191013094507/http://sam.zeloof...
In case anyone else is getting slow response times loading.
No backyard RISC-V foundries, yet!
That will take something like 20000 transistors.
0 0 0
Here, I think you dropped a few zeroes.
The Pulp project claims to have designed a RV32E core in 12 kGE. Which, I believe, implies around 48k transistors with CMOS logic.
Note that original MIPS (1983) was done in 25k transistors.
Not a backyard foundry but this guy is attempting to make a "tangible" RISC-V CPU using "As few programmable chips as possible." he wants to use MSI and LSI chips " so things like buffers, flip flops, and so on. "
More details: http://www.halfbakedmaker.org/blog/lmarv1-1
YouTube playlist https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PLEeZWGE3PwbansoxKjjMK...
Anything similar for homemade LEDs ? (I only found one hackaday article)
I assume you mean this [0] hackaday?
There's plenty of similar guides to making Silicon Carbide LEDs. [1][2] It's basically recreating Round's discovery.
[0] https://hackaday.com/2012/06/05/homemade-silicon-carbide-led...
[1] https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MiHjPCzNxb8
[2] https://web.archive.org/web/20170704125554/http://www.dlip.d...
Thanks a lot
How far away are we from printing something like this at home?
What you mean "printing"? From the article: There are 66 individual fabrication steps to make this chip and it takes approximately 12 hours for a full run. Automate all 66 fabrication steps into a fully integrated device is not exactly trivial.
And, from what I can tell, some of those steps involve various less than pleasant chemicals.
Lots more detail for the uninitiated:
The most complex parts of phones and computers (e.g., the CPU) are integrated circuits (ICs)[0], which are (nowadays) billions of nanometer-sized transistors on top of a piece of silicon. The way these are made is arguably the most complex, high precision manufacturing process in the world, and is usually done in multi-billion-dollar "fabs" (fabrication plant) by huge companies (e.g., Intel).
Even the most basic IC fabrication, like in the article, absolutely requires maybe ~5-10 complex tools (furnace, sputterer, etc; $1000-$10k each at current eBay prices and very low quality, if you know how to rebuild/fix all of them) and a host of supporting equipment (fume hood for seriously dangerous[1] chemical work, etc). To get reasonable results, you also need to understand the device physics and then test multiple times to get the process right. I have some serious respect for Sam Zeloof of the article for getting this to work: it's at least an order of magnitude more difficult than other home manufacturing (3D printing, woodworking, welding, sewing...), even if you're already an industry expert. And his device used 6 transistors; you'd need to get the transistor manufacturing reliability up significantly to make a useful microprocessor (instead of small analog circuits), which probably starts at several thousand transistors [2].
If (GP post) you want an automated device that makes an IC for you given a digital design file, well, hm. The closest things we have today are companies that manage and run the equipment for you (fabless semiconductor companies (Qualcom, AMD...[3]) give their chip designs to, e.g., TSMC to manufacture). Academic researchers often send parts in together to reduce costs[4], in which case you could get tens of identical (reasonably simple) chips for several thousand dollars. Someone linked to [5], which looks like an attempt at a more open, hobbyist-friendly version of the same thing. I did run across [6] once, which _does_ seem to be attempting to make an easier to use, very small, automated system. I've no idea what their status is.
A desktop device as simple to use as a 3D printer is barely even on the conceptual possibility level at the moment, and then only when people start talking sci-fi self-assembly and molecular nanomanufacturing and a century of R&D.
[0] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Integrated_circuit [1] http://lnf-wiki.eecs.umich.edu/wiki/Piranha_Etch [2] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Transistor_count [3] https://www.electronicsweekly.com/news/business/manufacturin... [4] https://www.mosis.com/what-is-mosis [5] https://libresilicon.com/ [6] https://www.minimalfab.com/en/
Thanks for the detailed response.