As a current iPhone SE user, here's my assessment:
Pros:
* Feature set in terms of processor, camera, etc., is exactly what I want
* Continued presence of Touch ID is a huge plus, I don't like Face ID
* Price point is, admittedly, fantastic
Cons:
* Lack of headphone jack is still unacceptable
* Form factor is, candidly, still too big for my tiny hands
* Color schemes aren't as nice as the SE's (can I contribute to COVID-19 research without getting a bright red phone?)
I will be considering this phone, but skeptically. Would be ideal for me to be able to physically hold one before buying, but not sure that'll be possible (maybe I can borrow somebody's iPhone 8).
> Lack of headphone jack is still unacceptable
I think I'm in the minority, but I haven't really missed the headphone jack in my iPhone 11. I have the Echo earbuds, and those have been good to great for my use cases.
This continues to feel a bit like the 3.5 floppy and CD-ROM removals from the Mac: a lot of people hated it, until it was a nonissue.
> a lot of people hated it, until it was a nonissue
While I got the Airpods Pro when they launched and loved them at first, the battery degradation and seemingly worse ANC performance has really irked me given their price. I've also tried using cheaper wireless earbuds, but their connectivity can be spotty. I know it's not the worst issue, but I do miss being able to take a pair of wired earbuds and use them freely between my laptop and phone and not have to worry about their battery lives.
how long did it take for the battery to start degrading? its odd how people never seem to mention that problem when they are taking about how great their bt headphones are
I think bluetooth receivers are the way to go. you get the wireless aspect for the most part and can change track/volume without having to take out your phone.
you can use it any headphones or earbuds you have
with the fiio one I own, you can charge it while using it so you are never caught if you are near a power source or have an external battery chargers. and if not then at least you can quickly switch to being directly plugged in
there's also a much better chance that I will be able to replace the battery at some point in the future. with bt headphones, they are so small that it would be almost impossible to take it apart successfully
I've only really noticed the degradation in the last month or so, and it's taken maybe ~1 hour off of their initial battery life which doesn't bode well for their longevity :/ I'll look into bluetooth receivers for next time, thank you for the rec!
That's one more battery to manage. Perhaps a better comparison is wireless mouse or keyboard.
You aren’t in the minority. You are in the silent majority though. Most people -and really emphasizing most in terms of what people actually buy not what they complain about online- don’t care about a 3.5mm jack.
It’s gone, it’s never coming back. To that end, once iPhone goes USB-C it’ll accelerate this majority non-issue.
Yeah, I hated the concept but then I picked up an iPhone 8 as the most reasonably-sized flagship I could find and willing to make sacrifices for the size.
It was basically a forced upgrade to bluetooth headphones. I bought some bluetooth over-ear ANC headphones like two weeks later and it really hasn't annoyed me at all since.
You're probably in the majority. One can work around the lack of a 3.5mm jack, it's just a minor pain.
The larger problem with modern phones is the form factor.
Ugh, this is not at all a valid comparison. It's extremely tired, too.
The phone MUST create analog audio signals, to drive its own speaker. Denying customers a connector to access it is petty and offensive. Compounding that offense is requiring every listening device to now incorporate redundant D/A converters. Contrary to apologists saying that this enables better quality, it in fact results in wholly unpredictable quality.
Not to mention that your ears will ALWAYS require analog audio. So do billions of amplification devices around the world.
There's no excuse.
I don't think it's a good comparison for several reasons. 1) Those technologies were already not as heavily used when they were dropped. There are still tons of traditional headphones being manufactured and sold, even years after phones have started dropping them. 2) It's easy to leave an external drive at a desk for occasional use, it's much less convenient to carry a dongle everywhere since you likely want to use headphones on-the-go. 3) This is subjective, but floppy to cd-rom is clearly an upgrade, wireless to wired headphones is not. It adds syncing and battery life problems to an otherwise simple technology.
If you're carrying headphones on the go, how much less convenient is it to carry those same headphones with the adapter on them? I would argue it's exactly the same level of convenience.
Much less convenient. My wired IEM-style earbuds are smaller and lighter than most dongles I've seen.
That's BS. The Apple adapter is 3 inches long. You can leave it attached and it's no different than carrying the headphones/earbuds themselves.
How, in any way, is that "much less convenient"?
> Those technologies were already not as heavily used when they were dropped.
I'll give you it's not an apples-to-apples comparison, but having lived through all there events professionally, I can tell you that's not how it was perceived at the time. At least, not around my offices :-)
I realized I was not going to miss my headphone jack when I plugged in headphones and they didn’t work. Realized I hadn’t plugged in headphones for several months.
> I think I'm in the minority, but I haven't really missed the headphone jack in my iPhone 11
You don't miss it until you do. When you are trying to join a meeting and your bluetooth headset absolutely refuses to work (and yes, even the fancy Airpods Pro do that occasionally), you wish you had the ability to just plug in an old-fashioned, analog headset. Which you can pull easily, with no fuss, from many devices, including computers and gaming consoles. Quick, no pairing required. No battery issues.
Analog headphones are also very cheap(good if you are not in a rich country), and will always be cheaper than bluetooth headphones, as there is minimal hardware required. You can quickly pick one up even from a shady street seller and you know it will work(longevity might suffer, but again, cheap).
The only problem with the headphone jack is that it is a very old standard. It's big connector, and takes significant real state inside a phone.
Would a lightning dongle still work in these situations?
It should, but the issue then becomes finding the damn thing :-).
> The only problem with the headphone jack is that it is a very old standard. It's big connector, and takes significant real state inside a phone.
The 2020 iPhone SE is much bigger than the 2016 iPhone SE and almost 50 % heavier. This argument seems invalid to me.
It is thinner, though, with more hardware inside of it.
The thicker 16 SE actually felt more comfortable than these thinner phones. And this is from someone who went SE to 11 pro.
It's 0.3 mm thinner, you'd be hard pressed to notice that even with a ruler in a side-to-side comparison.
Might be that some people still remember the Bluetooth from 2010 or so.
These days, I charge my wireless headphones once a week. When I turn them on, they are connected before I have opened the music app. The connection is stable. When I stop playing sound on my phone and start sound on my laptop, they automatically switch to that. Their microphone is perfectly fine for calling people.
I'm sorry, but I don't think this is the case, at least not for me. I actually own a pair of Bluetooth earphones, which I use at the gym. They do well, I don't have to worry about the cable or accidentally hitting the phone in my pocket when picking up weights. They have a reliable connection, sound is decent.
But I have hundreds of dollars invested in good-quality wired headphones, plus wired earbuds, and I want to be able to use those with my phone without needing to re-spend that money. Plus, regardless of quality of the product, I'm occasionally a forgetful human. I've actually run out of juice mid-workout with my wireless set. Instead of not having music for the rest of my workout (I like music!), I simply walked over to my bag, pulled out my wired earbuds, and finished up.
Not having the ability to do that is a deal-breaker for me on a phone, and it's not something that can be fixed by improving the Bluetooth tech. While this is obviously anecdotal, I don't imagine I'm the only person who feels this way.
> But I have hundreds of dollars invested in good-quality wired headphones, plus wired earbuds, and I want to be able to use those with my phone without needing to re-spend that money.
Why not just swap in a wireless cable?
> Not having the ability to do that is a deal-breaker for me
The dongle is small enough to leave attached to your headphones and costs $9. It would be wasteful to include one with the phone, as most would be unused. Clearly you'd prefer a built-in jack, but you have a cheapish option to add this ability.
https://www.apple.com/shop/product/MMX62AM/A/lightning-to-35...
Saying you can leave a 3.5-to-lightning adapter attached to your headphones assumes that all of your other devices can do audio over lightning also. Realistically, it seems like you'd add or remove the dongle based on what devices you're attaching to, so you probably wouldn't want to actually leave it attached to your headphones.
That was my thinking as well. I honestly hated the lack of headphone jack.
After getting an iPhone XS from work - replacing my iPhone 5 - I found that I would actually just leave the adapter on my headset. If I ever used the headset for anything else I would take it off but immediately replug it after being done.
My conclusion is that it's been waaaaay less of an issue that I honestly expected it to be.
Seems what is needed is inverted Y adapter, with two inputs and one output and a switch.
In my experience with a fairly recent and expensive set of bluetooth headphones (Sennheiser Momentum 3), it works well most of the time, but in 5% of cases it does not. If you use your headphones a lot, those 5% get annoying very quickly.
Some issues I've noticed:
- My tv (flagship LG OLED) always has trouble connecting to the headphones. I usually have to turn them off and then back on again at least once. Macbook and iPhone rarely have trouble connecting. Connecting on Windows has always worked so far.
- When I'm connected to both my Windows laptop and my phone, in a skype conference on the laptop and get a call on my phone, the skype conference is automatically terminated. FOR ALL PARTICIPANTS. That's insane.
- To make the previous point even worse: except for the ringtone, the audio from incoming calls never even goes to the bluetooth headphones. The audio from outgoing calls does, however. This is all on an iPhone SE.
- Sometimes when I listen to music, or watch a video on a Windows machine, my bluetooth headphones will just pause the playback every couple of seconds. This only happens on Windows.
- If your headphones are connected to multiple devices, you have absolutely zero control over what is happening. You might be listening to music on your phone, but some notification from your computer will interrupt your playback even though the computer is set to silent.
I could go on and on and I've only been using bluetooth headphones for a month. There is a LOT of polish missing here. That being said, this could be a great technology and it's not too far off at the moment. There certainly are some advantages over wired headphones as well.
Bluetooth earphones mic quality is absolute ass, and has huge delay. You can tell who has bluetooth earphones (no matter the brand) on every call.
It’s unlikely people buying cheapest phone is going to get expensive Bluetooth headphones...
I still have a 6s with a headphone jack. I don't use headphones much, but do plug it into our cars (admittedly not as much of an issue lately). One has no bluetooth, one has incompatible bluetooth. Neither have USB input. Both are likely to last at least ten more years. One adapter per car is not going to be the end of the world, but it is an annoyance.
3.5 floppy and CD-ROM are replaced by something that does everything its predecessor does and better. Whereas bluetooth headphones are not 1:1 replacement of analog headphones. e.g. they have a battery, their audio quality is worse.
can I contribute to COVID-19 research without getting a bright red phone?
Yes. Write a check. Mail the check. Done.
What's with the US and Checks? Can your financial institution not get on with the time and offer internet/mobile banking? Not to be an arse but it seems very backward in many ways.
Non-sequitur.
The online payments feature I've seen in mobile banking is just a website front-end on printing a physical check and putting it in the mail.
That's only because the cheques are allowed in the first place. Rest of the civilised world can make online transfer that will reach the recipient the minute you pressed the form button, granted no unusual infrastructure issues.
I would love that. It doesn't seem to be a lack of online banking that's holding us back though.
I don't know how to get it. I use proprietary apps for that.
Not to be an arse
Too late.
but it seems very backward in many ways.
In America we have both checks and online banking. It seems very backwards to have only one method of doing things.
A single point of failure is a hallmark of a bad system.
It's just an expression. Very few people use actual checks these days.
FWIW I thought I would miss TouchID for a long time until I finally bought a new iPhone and realised that FaceID actually worked much better than I expected.
Yes there are some occasions where it doesn't work well (when you're trying to unlock the phone without looking at it properly) but there are also many occasions where it works much better. Most of the time my phone now unlocks so smoothly that I don't even realise it was locked. So on balance I think FaceID would actually be a plus.
I'm sure that's a huge help for people who like to check their notifications or other things on their phone while it's sitting on the desk without picking it up. There are tons of situation where your face is not in front of the phone yet you would still like to unlock it without contorting you or it, and how well face I'd work or not has nothing to do with it.
Yes, that's one of the occasions where I have noticed it not working well. I guess it just depends on how often you do that and how annoying you find it to have to lift the phone up a bit. Not a big deal for me.
Or having to remove your sunglasses, or when you have a face mask on, or when the ambient sunlight/IR is too high for the sensor to read the tracking dots it projects on your face.
FaceID introduced a huge swath of new failure modes while simultaneously reducing security. Not acceptable.
Yes, I will admit that it's not great with a face mask. But then that wasn't really an issue until a few weeks ago. Never had problems with glasses or too much sunlight but that might just be a perk of living in a country that's not particularly sunny.
FaceID works totally fine with your sunglasses on and in bright light... It does fail if you have a mask on, if you have goggles covering half your face, or if you have a helmet that covers your face... but to me that is all completely understandable.
And also something that you can partially alleviate with alternative appearances in the FaceID settings, depending on how much of your face you're covering.
Seems comparable to:
- not working with gloves on
- not working when too hot (sweat) or too cold (?)
- changing your grip to get a good print placement
How's it going with that face mask you're wearing? (of course I supposed you could be wearing gloves too in which case they both suck)
Easy - just stay at home and you don't have to wear a mask :p
But why would gloves cause trouble with FaceID? Apart from the fact that you probably shouldn't touch your phone with your gloved hand to begin with.
> But why would gloves cause trouble with FaceID?
They cause trouble with TouchID. That's the comparison.
You can set up a second face which I think was added specifically for masks which have always been common in Asia.
Works fine if you set up an alternate appearance in FaceID settings.
To me FaceID makes zero sense. The majority of times I unlock my phone when it’s laying flat on the tabel and away from me. I typically don’t pick up my phone to read a message, so FaceID will require me to move my entire face and upper body to unlock the phone. This is also why I don’t get the point of having the fingerprint reader on the back like many Android phones.
I wouldn’t argue that Apple drop FaceID, but at least put the fingerprint censor back, so we can choose between ToucID or FaceID. I believe that many would choose TouchID.
Surely this depends on the situation. In many lying flat situations, Face ID does work. If you want to read a notification (eg a message) while you have gloves on (eg if you’re skiing) then Face ID plus raise to wake are a massive improvement, though of course you have to take your goggles off.
Still boggles my mind that the Apple device you always use sitting directly in front of has a fingerprint sensor and the Apple device that I use at arms length, laying on my side, glancing down to at an angle, on its side, upside down etc now needs to be directly in front of me and one specific orientation to unlock.
Can you check your emails discretly during a meeting if you need to stare at your phone close?
> TouchID
TouchID is still almost always better than FaceID. Unless you don't have a thumb, I suppose.
TouchID had a 50% failure rate for me; FaceID works essentially perfectly. YMMV.
FaceID does work quite well, but what if wearing masks becomes normalized because of Covid-19? I don't know how well FaceID would work with a mask on. (Of course the same thing happens with gloves and TouchID, so maybe there's no good solution)
>until I finally bought a new iPhone and realised that FaceID actually worked much better than I expected
Found the opposite, it actually worked far worse than I expected. I can no longer use my phone in bed without having to hold it right up to my face because the tech only works one way up.
Found the rest of the innovations it brought underwhelming, like it can tell when I look away for 10 seconds to dim the screen but it doesn't undim it when I look back or the utterly confusing logic for showing me full notifications or not. The amount of times I've had to unlock my phone just to check through notifications is crazy.
My iPhone 11 consistently feels like a downgrade in user experience from my 7, even the camera everyone raves so much about doesn't seem that much better to justify how much of the case it now takes up.
Lack of headphone jack is still unacceptable
Yes, I'd be leaning towards trading my SE in for this except for the headphone jack which I use a lot. Now I'll have to wait and see if iOS 14 supports my phone.
Otherwise this looks like a solid improvement. $400 is the north end of what I'm willing to pay before I look at refurbs and last year's model.
I would happily make do with the dongle, but the Apple dongle's built-in DAC is noticeably poor. And, the iPhone having a lightning connector instead of a USB one, there really aren't a lot of alternatives on the market, especially if you're looking for a reasonable price point.
It's really frustrating. I use my phone to listen to music at work, and while I'm far from being an audiophile, things like a tinny high end are still annoying. Where Apple has spent so much time marketing to creatives, you'd think they would pay more attention to something like this. My impression, though, is that they're so caught up with the cash cow that is AirPods and wireless Beats headphones that they just don't care anymore.
This person finds the DAC to be extremely high quality: https://www.kenrockwell.com/apple/lightning-adapter-audio-qu... . Perhaps it’s a placebo. Perhaps the performance has degraded. Or perhaps his measurements are wrong.
Or perhaps there's a manufacturing error or some cable damage in the one I listened to? Or, for that matter, I have no idea what the impedance was on the headphones I was using; it was a pair of cans that could well have been more than 100ohm.
In any case, thanks for sharing. These test results are definitely reassuring.
Well he tests at 35Ω and 200kΩ so probably not resistance, and the output impedance is very low.
It may be that you’re used to hearing certain artefacts from other sources (eg you get totally different harmonics near the upper limit of a valve amp compared to a solid state one), or that the headphones could not be driven at a sufficiently high voltage. But the dac in the dongle is either the same as or better than all the dacs in iPhones with 3.5mm jacks so having a headphone jack wouldn’t help there.
Yes, I agree. I personally find the dac in the lightning connector to be pretty solid. Not as good as the interior one with headphone jack, but pretty solid overall.
I guess you must be frequently switching your headphones between the phone and some other device and so it is not sufficient to keep the $10 dongle attached to your headphone cable
No, I really just use the standard 3.5 mm EarPods to talk on the phone with family. But the conversations are long and it's much more comfortable to listen with the EarPods than to 'use the phone'. The conversations always begin with 'lemme rig up.'
But if you got a new phone it would come with EarPods with a lightning cable so it’s only different if your phone conversations last long enough that battery life is a concern
I did not know that. So that's probably good enough for me which pushes the new SE into the picture.
I'm just going to buy 2 old SEs on Ebay and swap units when my current SE finally dies. No way am I paying $400 for a bunch of features I don't need (better camera) plus a bunch of anti-features I want to avoid (no audio jack, still too big).
For me, I prefer the 4" screen but I can handle a slightly bigger screen. Touch ID is a must and I'm glad they kept it. But the loss of the headphone jack will be bad, so I'll stick with my current SE as long as it's supported.
> so I'll stick with my current SE as long as it's supported.
Seems to me you can assume that’s about to end.
Why? Apple tend to support their phones for many years after newer models are released
The original SE is about 4 years old now, which is close to retirement age in Smartphone years. It should be noted that the SE uses the same class hardware as the 6s, which is at the very bottom of Apple's currently supported list.
This article[0] from MacRumors in January seems to indicate all iPhones currently supported by iOS 13 will be supported by iOS 14.
[0]: https://9to5mac.com/2020/01/26/ios-14-devices-rumor/
Also current SE user.
I can live with all that cons... EXCEPT for size! It's too big...
Same. I'm seriously considering making this [0] my next phone when my current SE croaks, though I really don't want to go back to Android.
[0] https://palm.com/pages/product
FWIW I've got some wired headphones I really love and I bought a dongle for them when I got my iPhone XS in 2018. I really don't notice it; it just feels like an extension of the cord.
If there were two native lightning ports that could be nearly as good as a 3.5mm jack.
The lightning+3.5mm bodge jacks retain the functionality at a reduction in usability, but just about work for a non-premium product.
An SE case with an upgraded processor would have been perfectly good.
When was the last time you plugged your phone into anything except to charge? And when was the last time you needed to charge it and listen to music at the same time?
All I'm saying is, lots of people who are going on and on about the headphone jack are upset out of principle, even though it won't actually degrade their user experience to a meaningful degree. I'm not saying it was the right decision, necessarily, but I'm saying you'll have a better time if you just accept it and move forward. It really isn't that bad.
Edit: Personally I only ever charge at night, and only ever use headphones when I'm walking around/driving somewhere. I guess battery life varies, but I also suspect that a lot of people are eagerly charging at every opportunity, even if they'd last the day without doing so. My XS lasts two days on a charge, usually.
I have often wanted to charge my phone and listen to it at the same time. Wireless charging helped, but I really missed being able to plug my iPhone 8 into a power bank and my headphones at the same time.
Playing Pokemon GO beat this into me hard. It used to be such a battery drain that you pretty much had to constantly be plugged in to a power bank with everything non-essential turned off (wifi, bluetooth, brightness, etc). But when you're out walking around, it was also way more enjoyable to have some kind of music or at least in-game sounds.
Plugged in, with music. For as many hours each day as the power banks would allow.
> When was the last time you plugged your phone into anything except to charge?
Aside from headphones? March 15th, the last time I took a train (been at home due to covid since then)
> And when was the last time you needed to charge it and listen to music at the same time?
Last night, when I was watching futurama in bed
Now when it comes to both cases, the answer would again be March 15th, when I had my phone plugged into my laptop providing limited connectivity, my headphones plugged into my phone listening to (offline) spotify. I then unplugged my headphones from the phone and plugged into my laptop to listen to a short video, then back into my phone to continue to listening to music.
This is possible with a lightning+3.5mm jack dongle, but it's not as nice an experience as with the superior iphone of yesteryear.
> then unplugged my headphones from the phone and plugged into my laptop
With some Bluetooth headphones you could just listen to both devices at the same time without plugging / switching anything. It also has upsides.
Bluetooth is a pretty ropey experience for multi sources - which device am I paired with, how do I change from one to the other, all of that goes away with 3.5mm.
I don't deny there are benefits of bluetooth, but there are benefits from a 3.5mm jack too.
“Bluetooth” in general maybe, but have you used AirPods or any of the Beats headphones with the H1 chip? They are extraordinary.
I'm fortunate that I have my own office so don't need to worry about headphones during the working day - just have multiple speakers. How do these extraordinary headphones cope with sources from a TV, computer, laptop, phone, and test kit, which I want at different levels and outputs?
A £50 mixer takes these inputs (almost all from 3.5mm sources) and brings them all together via a reliable tactile interface.
On the road of course I only tend to have to choose between 2 sources, so perhaps beats can approach the utility of a 3.5mm audio cable.
You do realize that what you are describing is an edge and most users don't have a use case for 5 connections including a "test kit" right?
If a phone would have to cater to all these edge cases we'd still have serial ports on them.
Wired headphones cater for these edge cases.
As I say, I can live with a dongle for 3.5mm or serial (despite it being a regression), it's just another straw.
The certainty and simplicity of an audio jack is not valueless though, no matter how many people on HN say it is.
> The certainty and simplicity of an audio jack is not valueless though
Nobody is saying that audio jacks are valueless in general, just that it's reasonable for a mass market device where it has value for a small % of people to not have it.
and you have to worry about whether your headphones are charged.
So get AirPod Pros and be done with it. Watching a show in bed, you won’t have cables tangling up. You won’t be frustrated with trying to listen to music while charging your phone on a train. You’ll have a much better experience overall. Futurama isn’t streaming at some audiophile deluxe level of audio quality, so whatever wired headphones you are using aren’t going to beat AirPods Pro for the purposes you’ve mentioned.
I am not willing to spend $250 to solve a problem that Apple willfully introduced. I am also not willing to spend $250 on a product with a usable lifetime of 18 months max.
I hear a lot about the inconvenience of wired headphones, but as a daily user of wired headphones, that's not something I experience. And it certainly doesn't outweigh the costs (financial and environmental) of switching to Apple's disposable wireless headphones.
Use any other pair of bluetooth headphones on get lightning wired headphones or use the headphone dongle.
I was annoyed when Apple initially got rid of the headphone jack but I've been without it for quite some time now and it's not really a bother. Even if you have to charge while having the wired headphones in, there is a dongle for that. I suppose if that's a very frequent use case, I can see the annoyance.
My last iPhone that had the headphone jack required frequent cleaning of the jack or else it would get clogged with accumulated dust and make the speaker very quiet.
I use hook earphones at night [0], haven't found any wireless ones, but even if I did I'd have to keep them charged which seems like a retrograde step.
The downsides of "AirPods Pro"
1) They go in my ear, which is uncomfortable
2) They need charging
3) They presumably are trivial to lose
4) They cost about 50 times as much as hook earphones.
> Watching a show in bed, you won’t have cables tangling up
I don't have cables tangling up.
> You won’t be frustrated with trying to listen to music while charging your phone on a train
I'm not, because I have a jack on my phone and I don't use bluetooth and thus suffer from deciding which host they should be connected to at any given time
[0] https://www.teknistore.com/en/on-ear-and-over-ear-headphones...
They're not quite as easy to lose as you would think. Since they're so easy to cary around (rounded, small case), you don't end up putting them in strange places and it's not a problem to just keep them in your pocket.
This is the workflow when I want to watch something at night while I fall asleep. It would get lost in the sheets, or under the bed, or similar.
That doesn't happen to my £5 ear phone because it's connected to my phone, which itself is connected to the mains.
Sorry, but I think that's nonsense. I have an iPhone 11 and charge it completely wirelessly and even you're admitting that you haven't needed to plug something in for over a month. Your complaint requires you to willingly ignore the other options you have for accomplishing this, some of which may actually be easier/smoother if switching from device to device.
Your comment is such a first-world response.
Falling asleep to podcasts?
> And when was the last time you needed to charge it and listen to music at the same time?
Not music, but phone calls. Working remotely means I spend a lot more time on the phone, and only recently I was frustrated by the fact that I could not charge my phone and use headphones on a call at the same time.
I have a $20 wireless charging stand....
I regularly charge and listen - ill plug my phone into my 15,000 MA Lit battery when hike/walk for miles and listen to podcasts or the radio.
When was the last time you needed an airbag? I wouldn't be upset on _principle_ if it turns out my car doesn't have a working one; I don't even expect to use it frequently. However, when I do _need_ it, I'll need it badly.
"And when was the last time you needed to charge it and listen to music at the same time?"
Well, I listen to audiobooks while walking in the Scottish mountains and 10+ hour days are possible and when running multiple apps (OS maps, Endomondo, Audible) I do need to charge and use my phone at the same time (I have a dual lightning/headphone adapter that supports charging and listening at the same time).
I think we should stop this conversation about headphones and instead talk about walking for 10 hours in the Scottish mountains.. that’s so cool!
If you are interested I can recommend:
https://www.walkhighlands.co.uk/
And I've been watching these videos to stay (relatively) sane these last few weeks:
https://www.youtube.com/user/wilkiemurray
Over the last 8 weeks? Every single day. My regular bluetooth headset with built in mic picks up too much ambient noise, so I use a wired Jabra headset with a boom microphone, and I'm on this every day since I'm now remote from the people I need to speak to regularly.
Prior to the last 8 weeks? Not very often.
Over the next 8 weeks? I expect every day still.
Over the next year or two? 40% chance that it'll still be happening regularly.
> When was the last time you plugged your phone into anything except to charge? And when was the last time you needed to charge it and listen to music at the same time?
It's been a while, because I dropped my adapter down somewhere in the center console of my car, past the hand brake, so it's gone. I've been burning CDs instead. A CD burner only costs about as much as 3 of those adapters and the media's dirt cheap.
[EDIT] before that, daily.
My car doesn't have bluetooth, so Monday?
IMDEN Bluetooth FM Transmitter... https://www.amazon.com/dp/B07F2RTN5Z?ref=ppx_pop_mob_ap_shar...
Many people on this thread are very keen to show how many things you can get to work around the lack of 3.5mm jack
What exactly is the benefit to not having a 3.5mm jack?
Well, my son also has a car without Bluetooth and he had an aux cord that he left in his car with a lightning adapter attached. He even found it much more convenient to just turn on his car and it paired to the Bluetooth adapter above. A $10 adapter that just stays attached to the cord you would need for your car anyway if you don’t have Bluetooth doesn’t seem that inconvenient.
However, a wireless cigarette lighter adapter that supports Bluetooth is much more convenient either way.
For me personally, Bluetooth headphones in general and AirPods Pro in particular are much more convenient - especially going back and forth between my cellular watch when I am jogging or in the gym (pre-Covid),my phone, my iPad, my laptop, and my AppleTV. Besides cords get tangled, yanked out, caught on things, etc.
>For me personally, Bluetooth headphones in general and AirPods Pro in particular are much more convenient
You're free to use Bluetooth headphones even if you have a headphone jack; being able to use them doesn't seem like a "benefit" of not having the jack.
So did you also complain when computer manufacturers stopped including PS/2 and VGA ports?
People have been complaining about Apple getting rid of things since the original iMac got rid of the 3-1/2 drive. High end android phones from Google and Samsung got rid of the headphone jack also.
I didn't complain about PS/2 and VGA ports because the replacements were decidedly better.
I've yet to see anything that makes the removal of a 3.5mm jack seem comparable. You couldn't use DVI or HDMI without replacing the port, which isn't the case with Bluetooth (which you can use regardless of having a 3.5mm jack or not).
A more apt comparison in my eyes seems like wireless mice/keyboards. They don't have cords so they're significantly nicer for cable management, look better on your desk, have longer reach, and probably have other benefits (as well as their own set of tradeoffs like latency, battery, etc). You can use them now or you can use wired versions... but just imagine if a company started selling computers where you could _only_ use wireless keyboard/mice unless you bought USB dongles. Sure, you could just buy the dongles and deal with the loss of choice/convenience, but... why would you want to?
but just imagine if a company started selling computers where you could _only_ use wireless keyboard/mice unless you bought USB dongles.
You mean like the one port MacBook that once you plugged it in for power you had to use wireless accessories, the current MacBook Air and 13” MacBook Pro that only has two ports - but once you plug in power and a monitor you don’t have any ports left?
Yeah, kind of like that (except laptops have a built-in keyboard/mouse, so it's not as much of a problem as, say, a desktop where people rely on their own existing hardware would be). I'd wager most people buy those devices because the rest of the machine is so compelling, despite the lack of ports.
Anecdotally, it seems like each HN thread about new macbooks also has plenty of comments from people complaining about the lack of ports and/or wishing for more. I don't see a lot of people saying the equivalent of, "Apple's never gonna bring those ports back, get over it and get used to it."
It doesn’t look like Apple will ever bring back Ethernet ports, HDMI, dedicated power ports to free up a USB port or even USB 3 ports to laptops.
When I wake up for an early meeting and find that I forgot to put the phone on the charger, so I need to charge ASAP and also get on the call with headphones.
Any time I go on a long drive with GPS running
Any time I get on a flight longer than 3 hours or so
When I've been using my phone a lot during the day but want to listen to music while I do dishes before bed
You’re wearing headphones in the car?
No, that's illegal where I live (at least for the driver, I'll sometime wear headphones on a long trip when I'm not driving but in that case I won't be navigating so battery drain isn't as bad). I was responding to the above poster's question: "And when was the last time you needed to charge it and listen to music at the same time?" I don't have wireless Android Auto or whatever new cars have nowadays, so I use an analog connection to my car's stereo. The cable uses the same 3.5mm jack as headphones, but is legal as long as I don't fiddle with my phone while driving.
This sure seems like a niche case that rightfully Apple wouldn’t see in their actual-use statistics when making decisions like “should we remove the analog 3.5mm?”
I'm not sure "driving an older car" is a very niche case. 3.5mm jacks on car stereos go back literal decades, and my 2019 Jetta still has one (even though it also has Android Auto + CarPlay). Even as far back as cars with cassette players saw people buying cassette tape adapters so people could route 3.5mm audio through the tape deck.
Even in newer cars, it's the same kind of choice reduction you see on phones, though. With a jack you can choose whether you want wired or wireless audio; without a jack you're still with wireless all the time, even when wired would be more convenient.
It's definitely a niche, most people buying $1000 phones are probably driving newer cars.
However I think use cases like air travel or just hanging out at home with a low battery are less rare. These can be partially mitigated w/ wireless charging, but when I use a wireless battery pack on a flight my phone and tablet don't do a great job actually staying in place, and necessities lowering the tray which is annoying
My last two cars don't have fancy interfaces, but when you connected iPhone to a USB to charge you could also listen to the music.
That's a fancy interface.
Connecting a portable music player to car radios tended to go
* 3.5mm cassttee input
* FM transmitter input (for cars with CD, not cassette)
* 3.5mm aux input
Power was a 12V cigarette lighter.
During all of this the output from the mp3 lpayer was a 3.5mm device.
It was only relatively recently (say in the last 7 years) that most cars started getting USB and bluetooth sockets that took audio connections. Even then there are issues - my 2016 skoda's airplay doesn't play music properly - it frequently skips, I have to use bluetooth to get skipless sound, which means not using maps.
Having USB audio input as standard was even more recently than that - I hired a newish car about 3 years ago which had nothing by a 3.5mm input and 12V jack.
Presumably plugged into the AUX jack in the car. Usually with power plugged into an cigarette lighter adapter. This use case is covered with the correct kind of dongle, but they're a bit hard to find. You'll probably have to order it off of the internet, not pick it up from the checkout aisle at the 7/11.
Actually, I find it necessary to charge and listen and the same time pretty frequently (almost daily).
More importantly, though, removing the headphone jack is just plain stupid. Why should I support stupidity with my hard-earned money?
> And when was the last time you needed to charge it and listen to music at the same time?
I'm doing it right now... I do it multiple times every day... And if I wasn't at home due to Covid I'd be doing so even more often.
> And when was the last time you needed to charge it and listen to music at the same time?
On planes - although I guess it will be a while before I go on a flight again.
>> lots of people who are going on and on about the headphone jack are upset out of principle, even though it won't actually degrade their user experience to a meaningful degree
But that is patently untrue.
1. I used to have a bunch of cheap, working headsets everywhere - laptop backpack, car, office, home. That whole use case and convenience is GONE.
2. If I was somewhere and needed to take a concall, I could just borrow anybody's headset. No longer the case.
3. Instead of having a good pair of headphones for 2 decades, I now have to buy new bluetooth headphones with unreplaceable battery and aging standards every few years, and worry about charging them etc.
My life has been so much worse since my employer switched to iPhone, that I wrote to my boss, project manager, practice lead, and in the end CFO. And not because "I'm one of those people" - I spend 3-6hrs a day on calls, and life just sucks now. (for those who think Airpods are "fine for calls" - yes. For YOU. Not for other 20 people on the call who have to hear everything happening in 5 miles radius of you. And heaven help us if multiple Airpods join the call!)
So even if we say life got worse for - whatever: 10%, 5%, 1% of population - how has it gotten BETTER for you guys that don't happen to have a need for a jack? The phone is not smaller, it doesn't have a better battery life, etc.
I just don't see the argument here other than "I don't need it, so nobody should have it".
I've now spent several hundred dollars on the best-reviewed, bluetooth headset for my conference calls, and it's nowhere near as good, or convenient, as my $29.99 wired headsets.
Seriously, just buy something like https://www.amazon.co.uk/dp/B07YFMNZ6T
Yes we shouldn't have to, yes it's a step backwards, yes it's not as good, but I suspect it would save you a lot of problems.
Don't let perfect (a phone company making a phone with a standard cabled audio interface) be the enemy of good (a solution for your problem).
I have several variations of those.
It now becomes either something I have to carry around with me always; or buy one for each 3.5mm headset I've stashed.
Add the poor reliability and performance, and we come back to your point:
"Yes we shouldn't have to, yes it's a step backwards, yes it's not as good"
Exactly. So I will absolutely do whatever I can to make my life easier - but I also refuse to pretend this does not make my life needlessly harder - once again, for no obvious gain for those who defend the decision.
Phone jack is inherently different than all the Firewire/Zip drive items. There are literally thousands of technologies, interfaces and standards that live and die like fireflies. But the phone jack is a century old and still works perfectly well, and we have replaced it WITH the technology of the day - who thinks their $300 Bluetooth Bose will work 20 years from now? Or seemlessly plug in to each device they use?
Life is full of situations where you have to adapt to an inferior world, it's important to avoid stressing over situations you can't control.
"I've now spent several hundred dollars on the best-reviewed, bluetooth headset for my conference calls, and it's nowhere near as good, or convenient, as my $29.99 wired headsets"
You could buy 50 3.5mm+lightning dongles for several hundred dollars, and stick them on the end of each headset, which sounds more convenient than messing around with bluetooth.
I was thinking of the terrible headsets that some collegues use -- they have USB-A plugs on the end, for laptops. Not sure what they do if they want to join a call from their phone (say out walking). My 3.5mm tip+ring+ring+sheild headphones works on laptops and phones, seems far superior to their single-use devices. But western economy is built around selling you something new every 2-4 years, so needs obsoleting.
> upset out of principle
Every single moment of "oh, I'll just plug my phone into the AUX... oh. right." is not "out of principle". It's made especially stark when contrasted with other devices: right now I'm 3.5mm'd into a 2019 MacBook for Zoom; I can trivially replug into the iPad next to me, but if I want to do the same with the equivalent era iPhone, I have to walk out of the room, root through a bag for the adapter, or go find the AirPods (hoping they're charged), probably re-select them as the output, while accepting the loss in quality from the old-school cans.
It's not some hypothetical: it's literally decades of habit and muscle memory, throwing away a simple and universal technology that worked insanely well. I can forgive this sort of short-term sacrifice for a transition to a better world: floppy for USB, HDMI for USB-C. One can debate whether the loss is necessary, but usually once we're on the other side, the new standard is inherently superior across every metric.
This is not the case for wired to wireless audio. Though I love the AirPods, they still have batteries, which still run down (short term, and long term). It's always more of a hassle to swap bluetooth connections than just replugging cables. If I want to not share my audio with the world, I can be 1000% sure of that by plugging in a cable, as opposed to the ephemeral "is my computer paired right now, and if so to what?", which could change at any moment when signal is lost or a battery dies. Sure, there's dongles, which is yet another piece of tech junk to juggle and find and lose, and which never seem to be around when you actually need it.
Imagine you went to your bookshelf to grab something to read, only to discover that your curated and beloved collection has all been pulped, and a Kindle with their contents is now in its place. Bezos enthusiastically tells you how much better the Kindle is, and how brave he is for "upgrading" you. That is how we feel. It's one thing to decide to make this sort of transition yourself; when a massive corporation does it on your behalf, "for your own good", yeah, we're gonna get peeved.
This new SE has wireless charging, would that address the charging and music aspect?
Something like this "addresses" it, it's just an inferior experience.
https://www.amazon.co.uk/dp/B07YFMNZ6T
> I really don't notice it; it just feels like an extension of the cord.
You just can't charge and listen to music at the same time...
>lack of headphone jack
My significant other got some bluetooth for xmas. (A nice bose since she is wildly anti apple, im not totally clear on why) She was into them for about a month.
With cabled audio it is sort of unavoidable to miss that never having to charge, pair, unpair, removing phone pairing history (example rental car retaining contact info), just plugging in is so clean, reliable. Honestly in the case of BT vs 3.5 jack i believe we invented in reverse order.
She has since stopped using the >$100 Bose and prefers a 20 sony earbud where one of the two ear buds is actually totally smashed (i drove over it, sadly. Shes a total catch.
So the missing audio jack is my only barrier to new iphone SE entry. I wonder whether anyone has considered some pcb+3d printing a slim fitting adapter which might extend the length of a phone but then provide the existing port and add a 3.5. In other words Is there any attempt at integrating the usb c Or lightning to 3.5 adapter into a clean little clip on / case thing.
Re rental car Bluetooth cleanup issues https://www.consumer.ftc.gov/blog/2016/08/what-your-phone-te...
And to be clear im not anti bluetooth at all. It just seems to be a not yet rightly set up system for security and convenience, naturally.
>>but not sure that'll be possible (maybe I can borrow somebody's iPhone 8).
My SE broke recently and I had to switch to iPhone 8 (They stopped selling SE by then in India). I am able to manage but the form factor is no where as comfortable as the old SE.
>> Price point is, admittedly, fantastic
True for the developed nations but still on the higher side for India and South East Asia. If they could price it at 299 in India it will sell like hot cakes here but iPhone always misses the bus here in India.
My impression of India was that up could either easily afford the iphone or you were in the market for a budget phone. Not much middle market. Is that a correct assumption?
That used to be correct in the past but things have changed here a lot. There is a growing population of the middle class. Nothing compared to what is there in the developed countries but nonetheless with some significant purchasing power.
The mean income of the 90th percentile in India in 2004 was about 113 USD a month.[1] In the next 4 years the GDP has increased ~4x. [2]
Now even if we assume (I don't have data from a study on this) the 90th percentile income doubled, it leaves them with 226 USD a month.
I can say from personal experience that is a modest assumption. My own salary has increased 40x in this time period. If you consider my friends (a sample space of 30) whose salary I keep track, the average increase is around 20x.
Now it is very reasonable (as the phone has become a very personal "being") to assume that someone in this income will spend a month of their salary on their phone.
Now that is a market size of 120 million people and increasing.
On a personal note, I run a operations company of ~40 people and their average salary is ~300 USD a month and everyone has a phone that costs more than 200USD.
So I think it's reasonable to assume Apple is still missing the bus.
[1] https://ihds.umd.edu/sites/default/files/publications/pdf-fi...
[2] https://www.google.com/publicdata/explore?ds=d5bncppjof8f9_&...
1 month of salary for a phone!? Wow, that sounds really expensive. I would think people would prefer to buy used phones from US/Europe instead at a discount.
No Night Mode for the camera. It's disappointing that they're not enabling it, but I guess it's not surprising.
Why is it not surprising? The processor should definitely be up to the task.
Just market segmentation? I'm not an Apple expert, but it does not seem like something they do.
I'm not surprised because it's the differentiating camera feature between the SE/XR and the 11. My friends and family that have Night Mode love it, but most don't care that much about multiple lenses. I too believe the SE is up to the task. Hopefully someday Apple will issue a software update that enables it.
Either way, I'm going to upgrade as the 1st gen SE camera is showing its age. Everything else about the 1st gen is still good enough for me.
I am curious to know why you say it is not surprising. FWIW, The Pixel 3A (which went on sale last year for ~$400, included night mode).
> Form factor is, candidly, still too big for my tiny hands
As someone frequently getting pinky finger injuries from holding my phone, I feel you.
Popsockets are a solution, but an annoying one that changes the form factor my phone and doubles as a potent trigger for fidgeting.
https://www.loopycases.com/
Still changes the form factor, but without the fidgeting problem. The case makes it easy to pop the phone in and out if you need the original form factor.
I would love this if I could collapse the loop. I hate that I can't put my phone down flat on my desk.
My old SE is about as perfect a size for me as there can be: with an Otterbox it fits in a vest pocket. That's what I need. This new one is too big and that is such a disappointment.
Headphone jack is overrated. Keep the DAC as close to your ears as possible if you are an audiophile. For the rest of us casual listeners, the adapter is fairly cheap and just keep one connected to your headphones (or in the headphone bag if you got one).
I am willing to accept no headphone jack only if the device supports USB-C, like my new iPad Pro and every other product I have purchased in the last 4 years.
Personally not too important to me, but I fully agree that it is time to change the port to USB-C. I am not sure why Apple is lagging behind on this, as I don't think it would have any negative effect.
Lovingly, this is a phone built from scraps of previous models. If we get USB-C on an iPhone, it will be on the iPhone +1 or +2.
Show me some audiophile headphones with a DAC and I'll believe you.
> Lack of headphone jack is still unacceptable
I was thinking the same till I bought an iPhone 11. The tiny adapter for 10 bucks is not that much of a hassle. I have one in my backpack and one at my workplace. I also bought a wireless charger. All that is not expensive compared to the phone itself.
* Form factor is, candidly, still too big for my tiny hands
+1
This is critical for me.
I'm torn on headphone jack. It feels very antiquated to dedicate a single large port to analog audio signals where USB can pretty much do anything.
I would probably upgrade just for the battery. iOS 13 is very smooth on my SE but the battery is just nuked without battery saver on all the time.
Have you checked the battery health/cycles? Mine was like that, even iOS at once unexpectedly shutdown...
The battery page in settings, under Battery Health should tell your capacity and other info. for me a new battery fixed everything... and batteries aren't usually covered under warranty as far as I know in general but Apple replaced it for me. FedEx Overnighted it to their repair center in California, and then back. So only without a phone for a few days. Kinda like a brand new phone just by changing the battery.
That's the thing. The battery is still healthy and it looks like it retains 90% of its capacity on the Battery Health setting page. I bought my SE very late into its lifecycle (June 2018), so I'm not sure why it's acting this way. I have had a problem with the phone rapidly losing charge in cold weather though. Did you also have severe battery drain on your SE on iOS 13 before replacing the battery?
Yeah, at the point before I got it replaced seemed like sometimes you could watch the percent going down in real time. But then at times I’d be at a few percent and it’d run lot longer then I expected.
I know the OS itself prompted me to get a repair. Got a popup when restarting about a unexpected shutdown. So maybe that helped with the replacement process.
Apple will replace the battery for around $50. Though their stores are closed so you might have to send it in.
Another option is to get a battery replacement kit from iFixit.[1] I did that and it doubled my SE's battery life.
1. https://www.ifixit.com/Store/iPhone/iPhone-SE-Replacement-Ba...
As an everyday user of FaceID IMO it is superior in every way to TouchID.
However, that’s just an opinion. What’s indisputable is that FaceID enables removal of the Home button, which is also a massive positive in and of itself.
Every iPhone I’ve ever owned that had a Home button ultimately had the first thing to fail be the Home button. Not always a complete failure, but at least a partial failure that would make the phone highly annoying to operate.
Besides the Home button wearing out, it also limits the screen size. A full screen is better in every way. In particular by giving significantly more space for the keyboard to be shown without taking up most of the available vertical space.
And so having a biometric unlock which is (arguably) better is really just 1/3rd of the benefit of FaceID. You get a more durable phone, a phone easier to waterproof, and a more usable phone with a better aspect ratio.
That said, the lack of FaceID on the new SE is extremely disappointing to me. I gather they just couldn’t make the margins work at $399.
I have come to realize that headphone jack advocates in phones really do seem to be a minority.
* If you use wired headphones on your phone, a dongle is just a few inches of cable
* Most who use wired headphones accept the quality and comfort of apple earpods that plug into the lightning port
* Most people in general who use their phones for audio use bluetooth.
Note: I am using the metric of average American consumer, not other countries.
Those are observations. My personal opinion is that you cannot get much smaller in display size than the 2020 SE without reducing UI functionality or having a pen. I am not sure 2020 apps would function well for any significant number of users with an iPhone SE 2016 form factor.
Also remember, this may be a good market for them to get into, but Apple is doing this so they can use existing parts and processes. This is not a top down design of a compact phone.
---
PS: My personal "Why did you do that" is removing fingerprint. They should have moved it to the back, if they cared about borderless display. Face recognition depends on lighting, and me looking at my phone.
> Price point is, admittedly, fantastic
Thats the biggest thing for me.
I got my first iphone when they were around this price. Nowadays I have a hard time spending ~1k on a new phone, so I end up shopping used.
Granted it’s my personal preference to buy the handset outright, I’m happy to see a hardware refresh on a more budget friendly option for a new iphone.
Form factor is frankly too big for pants. Have you ever tried to squat with an iPhone X in your front pocket?
Regarding the price point being fantastic - that may be true for an iPhone but not for smartphones in general. For 480€ i can get a pretty high end Xiaomi phone for example. Or three very decent Xiaomi A3 phones with multiple cameras and an OLED screen.
I disagree on the headphone jack. I haven't missed it at all since buying an iPhone 7, especially with AirPods.
I do, however, agree whole-heartedly about the form factor. The iPhone 5 was the perfect form-factor to me and I miss it terribly.
The batteries on original SE's are seeming to reach end-of-life now so I think I'll still have to jump to this. I've bought 2 used ones and had 2 new ones and they've all got dead/dying batteries.
If thats the only issue with your phone, aftermarket battery replacement service is pretty reasonable. 50 dollar ballpark and takes like 5 minutes. Just have a search in your area for phone repair shops.
Cost me $49 at the local Apple store for the same a few months ago btw.
Iphone SE owner here: after airpods I do not miss headphone jack
I wasn't following the leaks (if any) but I was excited for this announcement. Looking for a new phone to replace the 6S and this one looked like it might encroach on "small" territory. It's about an inch past the ideal but probably doable (even though it's as big as the 6S) and it's at a great price point but the lack of headphone jack is a single nail in the coffin that does it in for me.
So what are you going to get instead?
Not a clue yet. The Pixel 4a looks promising, but is once again huge. It's for my wife, so it might come down to whether she prefers that jack or something that fits in her hand, but I'm in this thread to google the other phones here and hopefully find something that checks both boxes.
I hung on to my 5S for the longest time before finally getting an 8. I'm happy with the 8's form factor, but it's definitely at the upper limit of what I'm willing to carry around in my pocket all day. I can operate it with one hand, though sometimes a little awkwardly.
I hated not having the headphone jack for a long time. But AirPods (which I do love) have taken care of that problem.
I'd say that the availability of eSIM is a pro as well, although that just seems like a catch-up to most modern smartphones now.
They should've called it the iPhone 8 2.
If this came out six months ago I would have considered buying this vs the iPhone 11 Pro.
The one thing about small phones is that you can operate the phone one handed. The iPhone 6-8 and the SE's design is pretty much at the limit that you could operate the phone one handed.
Bummed on the lack of headphone jack. I create music on my iPhone SE and pipe it into a mixer and studio headphones.
Not going to lose sleep over the color schemes because I will be buying a case for it anyway. That's how my current SE has lasted so long!
I had an iPhone 8 and Pixel 2 for a while. Both fit well for average-sized hands and I can barely type on my wife's iPhone SE. I'd consider this one for her but the lack of headphone jack is a problem.
> Lack of headphone jack is still unacceptable
Don't forget you can still use the lighting to 3.5mm adapter. It's no longer included free but at least it's available. Cost around $9.
My 5'1" college age daughter who still shops in the kids section of most stores uses a 4.7" phone and loves it. How small are your hands?
Agree with all these points (also an iPhone SE 2016 user). One more point to consider is whether or not the iPhone SE 2016 will continue to get OS updates.
> Lack of headphone jack is still unacceptable
Sorry, friend, but this ship has sailed. No point calling unacceptable what is now unavoidable.
I don't think the headphone jack is coming back. Ever.
Written from my galaxy s10
I also got the S10e because it has a headphone jack. The S20 also got rid of it :(
You might as well give up on the headphone jack bud. It ain't coming back.
And give up on the screen size. The number of people who want a phone to fit in their hands and pockets is effectively zero compared to people who want huge screens to scale up content size or watch videos on their commute.
If you wanted a massive screen, the iPhone 11 has been out for ages (although at a premium price point)
Not only that, but as an SE owner I can attest that many apps and web pages have more or less broken UIs on its screen. And I can't blame creators for not wanting to spend effort on a form factor with small and diminishing user share.
I'm the opposite type of (amateur) developer - I designed an app with an SE as my testing device. I was months into the development process before I said, "hey maybe I should look at the app on an XR." But it was pretty simple to scale the design up. I mostly just adjusted some left/right margins for the larger devices.
Well, the dimensions are still important because the zoom mode of the iPhone 6s, 7s, 8, and the new SE are the same dimensions as the regular SE.
And frankly this is part of Apple's premium positioning. If your primary concern is comfort of the form factor, then you're not willing to sacrifice your comfort to signal that you're using Apple's [attainable-]luxury product, and if you're not willing to sacrifice for luxury you're probably not likely to pay for it in the first place. For now, they're happy to let those people go to the Android world. We'll see if that persists into this economic recession, or if they start to move more aggressively downmarket to boost their numbers. But it's a very valid strategy.
Funny you say that, since Apple was notoriously late to the large-phone game.
> The number of people who want a phone to fit in their hands and pockets is effectively zero
You're not wrong, but seriously, what is wrong with the world?
There's a difference between wanting something and having an expectation that you'll get it. For instance, I have an expectation that my phones will have a jack, which is one of the reasons my phone isn't Apple.
.
> People who don't want to buy an iPhone because of it should just not buy them and stop hammering away at this dead horse.
That's exactly what I'm doing. I'm already not buying iPhones. The only reason I'd ever mention it anymore is when I see comments like this.
> You might as well give up on the headphone jack bud.
There's no reason to give up on headphone jacks.
> Finally, it has to be pointed out that people who complain about this omission underestimate how much internal space a headphone jack wastes in a phone.
I can't be underestimating it if I'm not estimating it. Some phones have jacks. Some don't. I buy the ones with jacks. I don't notice a difference in size.
I don't think the headphone jack will make much of a difference to size (specifically thinness) until they can completely eliminate all ports and move completely to wireless charging. I think that's their endgame here, as ports are the biggest hurdle to the thinness which their industrial designers (and marketers) fetishize.
If anyone ever manages to produce a phone with zero ports on it, then I'll evaluate that phone on its own merits. I'm not going spend hundreds (thousands?) of dollars on a phone that's worse just because it might encourage the manufacturer to design one that might be better in the future.
It's not really about "encouragement". This is clearly Apple's plan, and this is merely an incremental step that they must take to normalize certain things before they can achieve what they actually want to.
I can accept a headphone jack is a premium thing, I can live without it, but it's another straw, along with the downgrade in size and cosmetics.
Framing the headphone jack as a "premium" feature may not match the views of others, and should not be considered an assumption to be taken for granted.
Headphone jacks are not necessarily considered a premium feature by all phone users.
They are by some, as is evident, but that view cannot be taken for granted — even here at HN.
> Headphone jacks are not necessarily considered a premium feature by all phone users.
Neither is a large screen, indeed I consider large portable electronics to be decidedly non-premium.
A premium feature is something I'm willing to spend money on - a phone the physical dimentions of a traditional SE, with a 3.5mm jack, dual sim cards, a modern processor, and a decent amount of storage.
Others may have other views on what premium is.
My opinion continues to be as follows: As of January 2020, there is nothing any phone manufacturer has added that I would be willing to exchange my headphone jack for. Until that changes, I will either stick with my iPhone 6S, or upgrade to the best Android phone with a headphone jack available at my time of purchase.
I'd like to have a phone with a better screen and a nicer camera, and I'd even be willing to pay a lot of money for one, but those features just aren't worth the loss of my headphone jack.
The one thing I could see being worth my headphone jack is a folding screen, but it seems like we're still a ways away from those being durable enough. (And if some company does ever decide to put a headphone jack in a folding phone, that's the one I'll buy.)
I have a USB C->headphone dongle. Came free about three phones back. Works fine.
If I need to power the phone at the same time, I have a USB-C -> headphone and USB-C dongle. I keep that one in the car. It cost about 5 bucks.
Can you not do this with Apple kit?
You can get a Lightning adapter for iPhones. The problem is, I know myself—I will lose the adapter, likely right before a long trip.
I can't keep the adapter plugged into my headphones indefinitely, because then I wouldn't be able to connect them to my other devices (multiple computers, etc).
The iPhone comes (came?) with a pair of headphones that have a Lightning jack on the end of them, in place of a headphone jack. Just use those with the iPhone and use your regular headphones with everything else.
Or, if you want good headphones, then just let in the missionaries who've been telling you to accept Bluetooth as your Lord and Savior. (There are some really good Bluetooth headphones nowadays—studio-monitor quality audio, enough battery life to get through a working day, and <$200. I refused Bluetooth until headphones surpassed this bar, but they eventually did, about two years ago.)
Sure, and I could also get two sets of headphone-jack headphones and keep the adapter plugged into one of them.
I just don't want to carry two sets of headphones around with me. Currently, I keep my single pair in my back pocket, so I have them with me everywhere and I can use them with everything.
To be sure, the world would not end if I had to carry around two sets of headphones instead of one. But then, I don't need a faster phone either! New phones today are only adding marginal improvements, and the absence of a headphone jack is a bigger inconvenience by comparison.
Re: Bluetooth, the problem is that switching devices is still finicky. If you only use Apple products the Airpods do a good job at switching devices, but I sometimes use PCs. Also, I lose headphones frequently, and Bluetooth headphones are still expensive.
I mean, how about doing the opposite: leaving a pair of headphones plugged into whatever they "go with", and then putting in your ears the headphones of whatever device you're interacting with? How many devices do you have that need headphones plugged into them?
Many people just leave the Lightning earbuds plugged into their iPhone and wind them around the phone, putting the whole assembly into their pocket. (I've damaged enough cables of expensive devices that I've developed a tic against doing that, but in the case of the iPhone earbuds, it seems to be exactly what they're designed to do, judging by the extra plasticizer in the cable shielding that's not necessary for comfortable wearing and makes them degrade faster under UV.)
> and Bluetooth headphones are still expensive.
Have you checked Amazon lately? There are (high-quality!) $30 wireless earbuds from reputable brands.
> Leaving a pair of headphones plugged into whatever they "go with", and then putting in your ears the headphones of whatever device you're interacting with?
So my MacBook Air for instance (the 11 inch model, small enough to comfortably carry under my arm and use on the subway) doesn't really have a place to store headphones. And permanently wrapping headphones around my phone would get annoying quickly.
Again, these are nitpicks and there are ways I could adapt. But it would be inconvenient. I have a headphone jack, and it works.
> Have you checked Amazon lately?
I have not. The main problem really is switching between devices. And to a lesser extent, the Nintendo Switch's lack of Bluetooth audio support.
> That, and the Nintendo Switch's lack of Bluetooth audio support.
IIRC, they make a slimline adapter that you can stick to your Switch that gives it Bluetooth support. If you've got it jailbroken, you can also just enable it in software.
I think that was a third party project, maybe even a kickstarter thing...
IIRC Nintendo gave their reason for not enabling it by default as not wanting to interfere with the controllers.
> The main problem really is switching between devices.
FWIW, most bluetooth headphones also offer 3.5mm corded options. Just use the bluetooth when necessary/convenient, and the cord the rest of the time.
Huh, I hadn't seen that! That's really neat, and a possible real solution. Any product links? Doesn't need to be an endorsement, just as an example.
Edit: Oh, but then I totally forgot in this whole discussion—if it's Bluetooth I'll also have to remember to charge my damn things! Bleh. Still would like to see an example though!
One example: https://www.sony.com/electronics/headband-headphones/wh-1000...
Typically on sale for $250. 30-hour battery life.
You won't find this (that I know of) with earbud types.
Thanks!
> You won't find this (that I know of) with earbud types.
Ah, yeah, that's why I hadn't seen this. Can't really put headphones like these in my back pocket!
Off-topic, but I use the HomeSpot adapter [1] to add Bluetooth to my Switch. It's a big battery drain so I try to use wired where I can, but if I need wireless (watching something while doing dishes, etc) it works pretty well with some minor caveats on initial pairing.
[1] https://www.amazon.com/dp/B07L9SL7ZT
Headphones aren't the only devices that use headphone jacks. They can also be plugged in directly to non-portable speakers. And you can use them for high (enough) quality recording.
Plus, it's still much easier to plug in the cable than go through the pairing dance.
Airpods. Best purchase I've made in a decade.
Are you replying to the right comment?
I was referring to how easy it is to use the AirPods with multiple devices. Once paired, it's just a simple click to switch them.
And the comment you replied to was talking about the usefulness of non-headphone devices that also use headphone jacks. I just don't see the relevance.
Any recommendations for <$200 Bluetooth headphones?
Until iPhone 6s is deprecated, and will no longer receive iOS updates. I'm guessing iOS 14 will be about the end of that support.
I can hang out on outdated iOS for a while (I'm actually on iOS 12 right now), but yeah, eventually I'll likely hop over to Android. Headphone jacks are getting rarer in the Android world, but they're still around, and I'll get something slightly older if need be.
other phones never got rid of it, such as the lg v-series, and other phones have brought it back, such as the sony xperia 1 ii. these phones are just as thin or thinner than the iPhones with the same ip rating.
why is this downvoted? these are facts. i just presented some examples from other manufacturers.
> Lack of headphone jack is still unacceptable
Surprised there are people out there feeling this way. Join us here in the year 2020.
As a non-iPhone user, the standout feature to me is the 16:9 display. I'm so sick of phones with absurdly tall screens and dearly wish I could get an android with flagship internals and a 16:9 screen.
> Lack of headphone jack is still unacceptable
While you think it's unacceptable the rest of the world has moved on a long time ago.
Complete BS 'cons', this product is great, admit it. 1. airpods you peasant 2. my hands are f*king huge anyways this phone is still probably too small 3. already donated to Covid research without going through a corporation, I'll take white.
> 1. airpods you peasant
Why would anyone accept the worst sound quality the market has to offer?
For the price of the AirPods you can get wired ear-buds or over-ears which literally provides you with 10x the sound fidelity and listening experience.
And they all require that good ole’ standards-compliant jack.
When it comes to audio, I’ll only take the best. And the AirPods aren’t even in that competition. Peasant indeed, eh?
There is a headphone jack, it’s the lightning port. Or use Bluetooth.
This whining over the headphone jack is getting old. Inconvenient? For some. Unacceptable? Only to a tiny fringe faction. Get over yourself.
I wouldn't buy it at this price right now unless you had bought a iPhone 6S or 5S (They are actually the same, except for the screen size) in the last 2 years.
The removal of the headphone jack was something seen as treasonous for Apple to do at first, but then they will then tell you to purchase wireless earphones instead. Making it impossible to listen to music without being discovered via bluetooth trackers / scanners.
If those aren't problems for you, then it seems to be a reasonable buy for other customers who bought older phones. But if it were me, I would buy one in a year and a half when the price eventually drops further.
You say "As a current iPhone SE user... Lack of headphone jack is still unacceptable"
But you're a current user... so clearly you accepted it. And as long as you do (accept it, keep buying phones without headphone jacks) why would anyone change? The message you are sending (in the only way they care about $$$) is that you do in fact accept phones without headphone jacks.
Just reading what you're writing...
Are you not aware that the original (not this new) SE had a headphone jack? He is a current user, meaning obviously the original one.
I'm pretty sure the original SE has a headphone jack.
You are aware that the current iPhone SE has a headphone jack, right?
The iphone SE came out in 2016, it was an iphone 6s in a 5S case, with the size advantages of a 5s case, but the advantages of a 6s' cpu.
There is still no replacement.
I think you're confused: the original iPhone SE, the one the parent comment is mentioning, has a headphone jack. The new iPhone SE, the one that hasn't been released yet, doesn't.
> * Lack of headphone jack is still unacceptable
Sorry, you can't have IP67 water resistance with that 3.5mm headphone jack.
Edit: a lot of folks proved me wrong. I feel that I need to clarify: Apple's design goal is to make it thiner, more integrated, less components more battery space and unified input/output interface, all that combined with water resistance, is not practical. All the 3.5mm examples I am seeing doesn't attempt to make it thin and light albeit water resistant.
LOL the samsung s10 says otherwise.
My Galaxy S8 has IP68 water resistance and a 3.5mm jack. I guess if you need the extra .5 meters that's non-negotiable, but still feels like a niche use case.
My LG v35 has a 3.5 mm headphone jack and is ip68 certified
Motorola Moto x4 has both.
IP67 Rated Audio Jacks do exist: https://www.digikey.com/en/product-highlight/c/cui/ip-rated-...
Sony Xperia Compact series
That's not true, although I assume it may be harder to water-proof devices with each possible opening in the chassis.
There are some water-resistant phones with a headphone jack and an IP68 rating even. The LG V30 for example is a beast. Semi-regular usage on rainy days works without any issues. Even using it as a flashlight it survived 30min of pouring rain. I had to wait for the USB-C port to dry up to charge it after getting home, but it still survived without any damage whatsoever.
Other phones that are both water-resistant and have a jack [1]:
* Pixel 3a
* Galaxy S10
* Huawei P30
* and a lot more
If I remember correctly, Apple tried to justify its removal due to its size and water-resistance. I wonder when (not if) Apple will remove the power plug due to "water-resistance" and insist on using Qi charging (even though it has worse efficiency[2]) and cloud services instead of transferring data via cable.
[1]: https://www.androidauthority.com/phones-with-headphone-jack-...
[2]: https://www.wirelesspowerconsortium.com/data/downloadables/1...
The pixel 3a is not water resistant, as far as I know.
You are right. Sorry, I've been a little bit too quick typing this comment. Unfortunately, it seems I cannot edit the comment anymore.
You have to add $75 a year to the operating cost of these phones, for AirPods, which appear to have a design life of about 18 months, max.
I am very frustrated as the SE is really getting to end of life. I have bought 3 of them in the past month from various eBay sellers with good feedback. One fake, one had a badly degraded battery, and the other went into a reset loop after a couple weeks. There's not much out there. Apple's privacy is second to none, usability is very good (though if they introduce one more type of swiping I'm going to go mad. What's next, Force Swiping?), but the hardware is getting extremely inconvenient. Even my buddy who has large hands complains that the phone is too big and heavy.
Can't you use... any other Bluetooth headphones with it? I feel like saying you have to use AirPods is a bit disingenuous.
Yes. You can use $20 Amazon bluetooth headphones. And you can use a $9 adapter that fits in any wallet or purse easily:
https://www.apple.com/shop/product/MMX62AM/A/lightning-to-35...
And they come with free lightning headphones in the box.
When I got an iPhone 8, it came with that adapter in the box. I do keep a spare we had lying around in my cross-body bag too, for times like using someone's aux cord in a car.
Yes, it's another thing you can lose, but in practice I don't think it's really a problem -- certainly not the issue that would decide a phone for me, since rarely are all other specs equal.
Or the headphone adaptor, or the lightning earpods that are included with most iPhones nowadays.
There are many bluetooth headphone choices, plus an adapter for plugging in headphones. I'm just as sour about the death of the headphone jack, but I think it's hyperbole to say that $75/yr for airpods is required.
What? They come with a pair of wired headphones. Why do you need Airpods?
There’s a $9 lightning to headphone adaptor and a lightning headset are included in the box.
No there isn't, they stopped shipping those with them a while back.
I didn't say it was shipped in the box, it's available on the store: https://www.apple.com/shop/product/MMX62AM/A/lightning-to-35...
Some bluetooth headphones have outstanding battery life. Beats Solo 3 for example. Personally I have no reason to go back to wired headphones, just switching them between devices with a click of a button is so convenient.