saghm 8 hours ago

"Be careful with mutexes" is good advice, but I'm surprised it doesn't explicitly call out the various channels that tokio provides as alternatives (detailed here: https://docs.rs/tokio/latest/tokio/sync/index.html). There are a variety of options that fit different use cases, and you don't even need to enable the runtime feature to use them (e.g. if you want to do a single check for completion rather than await). I'd estimate that at least half of the bottlenecks I've seen with mutexes when using tokio could have been avoided by not even using a mutex at all and instead passing the data that's truly needed across different tasks with some type of channel.

The other trick I've used a few times that's a bit hacky but can get the job done is when reading a snapshot of the data under a mutex is enough without needing to prevent other changes; if that's the case, you can just clone the data and drop the mutex to allow other uses move forward at the cost of the data potentially being stale.

  • rusbus 6 hours ago

    (I am OP) Both good call outs. Will update the article to include them

    • saghm 5 hours ago

      Awesome! I was pretty confident you already were aware of both of those based on the level of knowledge needed for everything else in there, so I mostly was mentioning them here in case some people here might find them useful. Adding them in for others is even better though!

  • CoolestBeans 5 hours ago

    Tasks and channels is the way. You can get something that feels like programming a real preemptive concurrency model like BEAM languages or golang but with minimal overhead.

  • jimbob45 3 hours ago

    Why use mutexes (mutices?) over semaphores?

    • LoganDark 2 hours ago

      Aren't semaphores a more fundamental primitive that is trickier to get right? Otherwise, the mutex guards in Rust are very ergonomic.

      • lkirkwood 1 hour ago

        Semaphores are more general for sure. The common semaphore is just a counter, when you lock it you decrement the counter by one atomically. Therefore a mutex is just a semaphore with a limit of 1. I wouldn't say they're much trickier to get right, maybe just less frequently applicable in e.g. general web io tasks.

5ersi 8 hours ago

For a true high performance you should use thread busy-spinning, CPU pinning and SPSC/MPSC ring buffers.

  • VorpalWay 8 hours ago

    It all depends on what you are doing. I do embedded with strict realtime requirements. CPU pinning would not be an option. I have also done software that should use as little resources as possible (but still be quick) to coexist with other software on the same hardware.

    All of these are different, valid, meanings of high performance. You need context. An interactive IDE is yet another thing that needs to be high performance in yet another way.

    • mahboi 5 hours ago

      Also, using 100% CPU without a good reason can cause thermal throttling that makes it slower for the sections that actually need 100% CPU

dist1ll 10 hours ago

When you're at a point of tuning Tokio, consider taking a look at ef_vi/DPDK + SPDK

  • rusbus 8 hours ago

    Do you have any resources worth referencing on this? I assume this isn't something that works with tokio more of a replace tokio?

  • kev009 7 hours ago

    I don't think there is a ton of overlap. tokio is appropriate for general userspace apps, ranging anywhere from a CLI, GUI, API or web app. DPDK and SPDK are specialized fast paths for building network data paths and storage solutions that come with tradeoffs: DPDK uses poll mode drivers, outside of the operating system, which have various implications including busy waiting and taking over the interface. That is why DPDK is fast, no kernel/userspace context switching and copies, and the drivers are tuned for the polling model. But it's not a general purpose building block.

    • dist1ll 6 hours ago

      Fwiw with ef_vi you have full control over the event queue - you don't need to busy-spin it, you can choose whatever strategy you prefer.

      > tokio is appropriate for general userspace apps

      Yep, and for those I wouldn't recommend it. But tokio is also widely used in performance-critical infrastructure and web services. For those I'd say it can definitely be worth taking a second look at kernel bypass.

Tsarp 13 hours ago

One great use of agentic coding is being able to add and very granular tracing instrumentation to help with these sort of optimizations.

  • jeffbee 13 hours ago

    Also a great way to make sure that your app spends most of its time in observability overhead. For example even the latency histogram that the OP mentions is wildly expensive.

    • MomsAVoxell 12 hours ago

      If you’re not using eBPF to trace your app you’re doing it wrong.

      • jeffbee 12 hours ago

        The low cost of eBPF tracing is another myth.

        • MomsAVoxell 11 hours ago

          1) Its no myth, but you can definitely foot-bullet into doing it wrong, and 2) it's a far better path to take than in-app telemetry.

      • MobiusHorizons 6 hours ago

        Doesn’t that only work on Linux? And then only for things that make syscalls? Presumably people have to trace other slow paths sometime.

    • nicoburns 12 hours ago

      One legitimately great thing about LLMs is that it makes it feasible to add these kind of tracing instrumentations temporarily for profiling and then throw them away so they never reach source control let alone production.

      • jeffbee 12 hours ago

        I can get an LLM to trace my incomprehensible Tokio application which was also written by an LLM, which is why I don't understand its behavior. Truly the future we were promised.

    • Veserv 11 hours ago

      That just sounds like bad tracing implementations. A good tracing implementation should be able to drive gigabytes per second of trace logs to memory. If you are generating it slow enough to allow actual offload then you should be in the 1—10% range even if you are saturating your offload.

      You should, of course, upper bound this overhead by switching to a full time travel debugging solution, thus tracing everything, when you get to the 10-30% range.

      The only way you get to “majority” is if your trace implementation is slower than time travel debugging and provides less information, but then why choose something worse in every dimension.

      • jeffbee 10 hours ago

        I'm just reporting from the trenches here. I think you are suggesting that everyone is aware of and capable of using state-of-the-art (from 20 years ago) tracing schemes like XRay[1], when in reality they are not. Most projects would be well-served by any basic profiler but even profiling is apparently for wizards, because I've seen a lot of projects that will resort to manually annotating functions with OTel trace spans, which are ~millions of times more expensive than function calls. Even eBPF uprobe/uretprobe is 100x more expensive than XRay, at a minimum. HotSpot's JFR is like a miracle compared to what people suffer through to diagnose Rust+Tokio.

        1: https://llvm.org/docs/XRay.html ... is there even a Rust analog to this?

        • duped 10 hours ago

          Not even an analog: https://doc.rust-lang.org/beta/unstable-book/compiler-flags/...

          It's worth pointing out though that just tracing function calls isn't good enough for the kinds of stackless coroutines that run in async Rust tasks. You need a way of mapping between the async tasks and the compiler emitted traces.

          afaik, C/C++ have the same problem.

          • jeffbee 8 hours ago

            The difference is nobody in the C++ community believes that a dominant asynchronous executor library exists, and there is not a pervasive belief that it would be helpful.

            • duped 7 hours ago

              The "C++ community", if it even exists, barely believes in sharing code let alone any library being "dominant." They'd have to agree on a build system first, after all.

              But honestly that's a mischaracterization of the situation in Rust. Tokio is popular for networked service backends. If that's the wheelhouse you're in then yea it might look "dominant."

              • ablob 6 hours ago

                You don't need a build system to share code.

                You can share with header files and respective (shared) object files regardless of the build system you're using. Likewise you could just share the source. None of this needs a build system.

                • duped 5 hours ago

                  I was just being a bit sardonic because the C++ ecosystem is so fragmented that something like tokio couldn't really exist. It would be one of three executors in boost, abseil, or folly, and you would never see the kind of downstream ecosystem build on top of them because C++ shops are allergic to external dependencies.

        • RealityVoid 9 hours ago

          Huh, it seems xray puts blank trampolines all over your binary? That sounds pretty nifty but I would expect it to be pretty language agnostic, ish? Adding support should be doable for Rust as well, right? Anyways, pretty nifty.

          I am by no means an expert, but I've recently improved performance for some code and used tracy. They have rust bindings as well. It's pretty cool and it seems to be low overhead. Wonder if I can couple it with something like xray? Tracy is more the tracing library + tracing interpretations/aquisition tool.

          Edit: apparently rust already supports xray natively on the nightly.

    • foota 11 hours ago

      Just curious, why? Is this true even if you did something like a per-CPU histogram that uses atomic ops to increment?

      • jeffbee 8 hours ago

        If you have a per-cpu metric there would not be a reason to use atomic instructions to mutate it.

        • loeg 5 hours ago

          In general your unpinned userspace threads will hit the same CPU 99.99% of the time, but not 100%.

          • jeffbee 2 hours ago

            Sure. You get the pointer, you lock the mutex, 99.99% of the time that is uncontended, then you set all the metrics and release it.

    • rusbus 8 hours ago

      Was this in a specific application? I wouldn't necessarily expect that histogram to be particularly bad for most applications.

      • jeffbee 8 hours ago

        Reading the clock every time you jump into a closure is in fact incredibly wasteful, and is exacerbated by chopping work up into tiny chunks for questionable reasons.

jeffbee 13 hours ago

All of the significant server applications I have encountered in the industry have suffered from the same problem, which surprised their authors but seemed obvious to me: the application was spending the majority of its CPU time doing meta-work like entering and leaving epoll, stealing work from itself, etc. There are principles for writing Tokio servers and these are good points in the OP but I think they are little-known and too easy to violate.

  • cube00 12 hours ago

    I can't say I'm surprised when I see the 100+ function stack traces that Axum built on Tokio produces.

    Before you say Axum is "holding it wrong" the project lives under the tokio-rs GitHub org.

    • rusbus 11 hours ago

      Note that most of those end up getting inlined in practice

  • prydt 6 hours ago

    Do you have any references for these principles for writing Tokio servers? Or just a high level summary of what best practices look like?

iberator 7 hours ago

What the hell is Tokio? Articles mentions it like once I was expecting some programing principles from Japan

denizay 5 hours ago

Fast Tokioo, drift, drift, drift!