Because it's highly relevant, I'm going to paraphrase a comment I made last week:
I think a big part of the problem is that middle-aged men are at the apex of their expectations to be successful in the eyes of society, and we are living through a period of time where success is very hard to define, much less attain.
There is a name for this in sociology: anomie [1]. Émile Durkheim coined it in his book Suicide, written not too long after the Industrial Revolution.
In times of great change, the set of norms and rules that we take for granted as an organizing principle of our lives get uprooted. It's as if all of the pieces and tokens and rules of the board game we played our whole lives are swept off the table to make room for a new game, but the new game has not been set up yet. In that interim, we all feel a sense of unease. It is our turn to move, but we don't know the rules of the game or what moves to make. We feel intense pressure to play the game well, but don't know how.
In the past, these transitions have ended and society has generally returned to some sense of stability. A new board game gets set up, new pieces doled out, we learn to play the new game. I hope we get to that point with AI soon, but the revolutions seem to keep coming faster and faster.
I think for a lot of men, it feels like just at the time when we should be able to rest on our laurels a bit after having worked so hard to play the game society told us to, the rules have been ripped out from under us and any sense of security going forward is lost. We feel too old to learn the new rules of the game in time to play well, but not old enough to be able to abstain from playing.
Well said! 5 years ago I could have a pretty solid picture of what my career would look like through retirement.
Today, unclear what that would look like as well as unclear if the career will even exist that long.
One sunny spot I have is that life is very long. I think I have 1.5 careers left in me, and a full pivot is alright. I've been talking with older folks, and loads of people have historically done giant pivots at midlife.
pivot to what though, if "mind" jobs are going to be automated, it's not like there's a category of jobs that opens up, and going from mental to physical jobs in your 50s doesn't seem that easy
Physical jobs will drop in demand and increase in supply too. Unemployed "mind" workers don't have much to spend to drive much demand in manual work, and they might even try to pivot themselves to manual work, making things worse for manual workers.
and those who did the "mind jobs" 30-40 years ago retain that wealth, while wages plummet and they don't have to give up any significant part of their wealth to get what they want. This destroys class mobility , creating a type of feudalism.
It seems unlikely "physical AI" will be a complete bust but the post you're replying to is positing that fewer people will have money to spend on their services.
Yeah, fewer "office jobs" and more automated jobs in general, means less demand for manual jobs from those (as money will be tighter).
But also, many existing office jobs type will try (or be forced) to get into manual jobs, and many young people will see AI-dominated fields as a dead end and also try to get into a manual job career, increasing supply, and further driving manual job wages down.
Exactly. There is no safe career. None. If AI replaces even a modest chunk of the knowledge workers, salaries across the entire workforce are going to tank. Some very specialized areas that require a lot of training may be insulated for a time, but even they will inevitably feel the impact.
I'm glad I'm not inclined to be a doomer, because the future would seem pretty bleak.
A lot of well-paid physical labor is going to face more competition from DiY + AI guidance among able-bodied and cost sensitive adults.
Even 1.5 years ago I replaced a blower motor in my vehicle with something like Sonnet 3.8 as the driver - saving myself $400 in labor and having a fun and educational experience to boot. Many home repair items fall into categories like this, where the actual physical skill demands are fairly low, but skills + background knowledge + supplies-on-hand were the value driver.
The BG knowledge is now available to anyone for free, and it comes with its own knowledgeable shopper.
Because we have a largely paper pushing service economy and so the guy who's plumbing a luxury condo is dependent upon the existence of some overpaid javascript monkey who the builder/financiers are counting on to buy the condo when it's done.
If you automate the paper pushing what happens? Jeff Bezos isn't gonna buy more condos.
It's a spectrum, with "physical" and "mental" at each end.
Some of Software folk i know move to repairing electronic devices for living. He still works in AC-room, but instead of holding mouse and keyboard most of the time, now he holds meter probe and soldering iron.
> One sunny spot I have is that life is very long.
Not sure exactly where you are in it, but as a 53 year old I disagree. The younger I was the less likely I would have been to disagree but imo/ime the older you get the faster it feels like it is flying by.
> and a full pivot is alright
The AI-related existential dread is that it is very unclear what a pivot looks like when the ground under everything is shifting all at once.
The shifting is certainly a lot more obvious in our career than some others, but all of that shift (so far) happened more or less in a mere 10 months and is accelerating. And I don't think it is very likely that our career will stay anomalous for very long in terms of how much AI impact there is.
yeah, you're down to like 3/4 a career left, it makes sense that you feel that way. Less runway ought to feel different.
I do agree that a safe 'next' is unclear. But I also think if ai truly hits all knowledge work as hard as it might we're looking at up to 50% unemployment. Frankly there is no point career planning at all in that scenario. We will all have much larger problems.
And if it doesn't, then pivoting to some field with a combination of rewarding work and 'enough' pay seems sensible enough.
>some field with a combination of rewarding work and 'enough' pay seems sensible enough.
What makes you believe those jobs will still exist or will be available to you competing against massess of other now unemployed software devs? Overabundance of desperate workers will depress wages.
> if ai truly hits all knowledge work as hard as it might we're looking at up to 50% unemployment. Frankly there is no point career planning at all in that scenario. We will all have much larger problems.
If that much. I'm 52, and I wish I had decided 20 years ago that I'd rather do something meaningful. Like become a doctor. It would not necessarily be impossible to pivot to that now, but it would be very expensive and have a good chance of failure. If everything went smoothly, I could be a doctor just in time to retire.
>loads of people have historically done giant pivots at midlife
Lots of people didn't have their field automated away though alongside most other knowledge work fields, or seen at the same time a drop in demand in manual work and an oversupply (drop in demand because of upcoming AI layoffs, and oversupply in manual fields, because of same)
Also I imagine a lot of demand for plumbers might drop because AI might help you to learn to solve easy cases. Imagine you turn on you camera and it would just tell you what to do exactly.
Yes, buuut: I think we are already really close to that for a long time. You could learn a lot just from internet and youtube. But most people, I feel, just do not like to neither do plumbing/diy nor learn about it. Like if I tell people they can save hundreds of € by changing their own brake pads and that it is really easy to diy, they just shrug and go to the mechanic.
So I am not sure if AI will really increase the percentage of people willing to learn these skills and do repairs etc
Yeah the information has been available for awhile. What stops people is all the indoctrination and conditioning.
"I'm not allowed to replace my water heater, the government says I need permits, the government says only a plumber can connect a gas line"
I don't think people realize that the people doing entry level skilled work like replacing your water heater or swapping your brakes at jiffy lube often only exceed the caliber of labor that's in a McDonalds when it comes to attendance and pissing clean.
Some stuff you really shouldn’t do just because you saw some youtube videos, and it has fuck-all to do with “government indoctrination.”
I grew up in trades. I’ve seen shit work and dangerous work and serviceable work and beautiful work. And sometimes even I didn’t actually know the difference until an inspector (and family member) explained it.
So I do small stuff. If it’s serious and I can afford it, I use a trusted professional.
> So I do small stuff. If it’s serious and I can afford it, I use a trusted professional.
I'm with you here. Though I have to say, on the flip side, oftentimes when I choose to DIY something it is because I don't necessarily trust that I can find a professional who won't cut corners in ways not obvious to me. I've seen it happen too many times. I may be a lot slower, but I'm extremely thorough at the stuff that I do myself.
I have just called a plumber to do a leaking radiator replacement. Not because I don't have the tools or I don't have YouTube, but because I didn't want to do it.
But get a little more squeezed and with less salary due to AI eliminating your job or your field's salary bargaining power, and you'll try to not call one if you can avoid it, even if you don't want to do it yourself.
Currently AI made me way more work and unpaid over hours already buy sorting out the 10x expectations and the slop grenades by the 10x workers, that is why i needed it... so I can't even have this much feeling of having accomplished anything myself.
I'm not sure how this will work out. Burnout will be standard, and almost universal soon, apart from the previous low-performer, low skilled bottom of barrel folks who will mass produce crap with this.
Definitely. IMO, plumbing is one of those trades that videos on YouTube seem to help a lot more than an LLM. Code and simple stuff an LLM is great, but anything more complex or getting into heavy installation not so much.
Plumbers are paid well because of the way they organized.
-They restricted the number of apprentices. That limited the number of people in the field similar to medical school.
-They could bar substandard workers from practising in the city of London.
-They kept their craft knowledge in house and it was never written down. Apprentices swore oaths never to reveal the “secret of the mystery.”
If you look at programming we do everything the opposite. It’s no wonder salaries will collapse. In fact the only question is why didn’t they collapse sooner.
> One sunny spot I have is that life is very long. I think I have 1.5 careers left in me, and a full pivot is alright.
I'm 41 and I could, in theory, pivot. But realistically: I'm good at exactly one thing in this world in terms of job ability. I can cook, I can bake, I can play music, but none nearly well enough to actually make a living on it. Thus the end of my tech career, if it should come to pass, basically means I will have to work menial jobs to get by. The future is very bleak for me, and the only real hope is that the tech industry will wake up to what a bad job LLMs do compared to humans. But while I think they will do that eventually, there's no telling how long it will take, and the thought that the market will eventually correct is cold comfort if I can't get a job in the meantime.
maybe some just don't want to live that long. does everyone need to live as long as possible? you live your youth, and maybe that is enough for some.
if you start to hurt every day, get diagnosed with age-related disease, your cognition starts to deteriorate, etc, you might just decide "hey, i lived enough. i don't want to go through years of feeling like this."
I think about this increasingly often. I have accomplished much, and have seen much of the world. I have also lived through gruesome deaths in my family and have seen how aging in America, under American healthcare looks.
I retired in 2023, not because I could, but because I couldn't not. I'm almost 50. My parents died in their early 60s. I have some of their health problems, and some of my own. I also destroyed my back in a motorcycle accident many years ago and live with constant pain.
My favorite things to do, which bring my peace and joy, involve me sitting in a chair, which hurts my back. In my youth I rode my bicycle avidly, which now hurts my back. I love gardening, and if I do it too much, it hurts my back.
It became increasingly clear to me that my "purpose" in this country is to work until I die. I know that there are other countries, and other kinds of lives, but they are not where my wife and friends and life are.
I am happy, relatively healthy, and love life. I would like to live forever if I could. I know I could fill every minute of it with things I find interesting, even if it was just reading every single book.
But I've seen what American life looks like in your 60s and older, and it's not fucking pretty for most people.
A hurting back on a bike might be an issue of bike fit. Bicycle touring is a hobby regarded as accessible to even the elderly, and indeed one often comes across people age 50-80 on popular routes. Many of them will complain about a bad back off the bike when doing other things like camping or carrying panniers, but a fitted bike should not strain one's back.
Are you me? My old motorbike injuries are a little more distributed but -- like yours -- almost entirely crippling from the perspective of doing anything joyful; we're in the same bucket yearwise; and it sounds like we always visit the doctor with just the one bullet in the chamber.
Mostly just posting to say, hey, there's others out here like you. Hang in there, Almost-Me. If not, see you on the other side.
Deadlifts helped my chronic congenital back pain that is probably some combination of DDD and scoliosis and multiple herniations. Yes sometimes it pisses off the disks and I'm pretty useless for a day or two. And yes it has added some other problems. But overall I went from constant sharp pain nearly unable to remain seated, to occasional dull pain I can ignore, and rarely some really bad pain. Overall it's much better of a life.
Same here, really life changing for me with a back injury. I recommend hex bar deadlifts as they put much less pressure on the lower back than conventional ones. And front squats for the same reason.
Have to disagree there as it doesn't make much sense. The point is to strengthen the muscles of the back. Keeping a more vertical back angle directly reduces force on those muscles while keeping the same spinal compression. You want the opposite, to have maximal muscle involvement with minimal compression. Back extensions progressing to normal deadlifts are indicated.
I have done both extensively and heavy, and like you said yourself, with the barbell deadlift you will sometimes trash your back. Yes it does work the back muscles a little harder, but for me the extra risk isn't worth it. Also with the trap bar you can lift more weight so it balances out.
That's why Mishima topped himself at the age of 45: as a physical-conditioning buff and gay man, he came to a firsthand realization that it was all downhill from there. What you posted is very similar in spirit to the opening of his last novel.
For most people, the real physical deterioration doesn't have to kick in until age 65 or so (plus or minus). But you do have to show up every day and hit it hard. In the last triathlon I raced there were men in that age group still finishing with fast times. And they're not genetic freaks either, just consistent.
I defined success for myself quite a few years ago: I want to leave the world better than I found it. No high aspirations, no figure. Just better than it was.
Some of that is political advocacy. Some of that is open source code that should exist. Some of that is helping a neighbor. I don't need to hit a certain bar, I just need to know that in a given interaction or situation, I am trying to make things... at least a little better.
That also scales well to differing life decisions. The video game I'm playing, can I get people to play a little nicer with each other and have more fun? Workplaces are full of dumb stuff, success is making it at least a little better. Turns out I have kids now. Wasn't the plan, but now my obligation is to make sure my involvement in their lives is positive. Not a specific bar I have to achieve, but you know, someday I hope someone appreciates how I chose to live my life.
"To laugh often and much, to win the respect of intelligent people and the affection of children, to earn the appreciation of honest critics and endure the betrayal of false friends, to appreciate beauty, to find the best in others, to leave the world a bit better, whether by a healthy child, a garden patch... to know even one life has breathed easier because you have lived. This is to have succeeded!" - Emerson
Is that not the epitome of the classic mid life crisis?
You hit a point in your life, reflect back on where you'd thought you'd be when you were in your early 20s, and think.. shit.. what I do all of this for?
This isn't even a flippant comment (especially given the subject matter); being at this age and thinking "I imagined it would all be easy by now" does hit home.
The midlife crisis is probably better described as a change or unease in the self and not knowing why you get out of bed in the morning anymore and that entire adventure, whereas this anomie is the social environment you're moored to breaking down.
> Is that not the epitome of the classic mid life crisis?
I think there's a step change from say the silent gen/baby boomer generations where a midlife crisis was realizing you lived the classic "American Dream" but weren't going to be a rockstar or super wealthy, compared to now where a midlife crisis could easily be wondering if you will continue to have any economic value at all years before social security kicks in.
Admittedly this is America-centric, but that's my lived perspective, and also I recognize that things weren't always very stable even here, thus why I am comparing a couple of specific generations to the ones that followed.
There was, for a time when I was younger (as a Gen-Xer), just an assumed sense that each generation would have it better than the last. Naive, perhaps, but alas. And obviously far less people assume that anymore.
Don't forget that social security has been raided and won't even be available for those of us reaching middle age right now and the people we keep electing who say they will do something about it have shown over and over and over that they actually won't.
Anomie plus helplessness plus a feeling of a rug pull of the laws/equality/character of our country. I am not suicidal but wow I get it.
SS was not "raided" . Whatever made you think that is surely contributing to human misery. It's just running out because it's always been a scheme where the young pay the old and we have fewer young than old. The people getting SS payments, themselves paid into it! It's not any sort of raid, corruption, evil...
And it's actually fairly easy to fix if we raise the social security income tax cap. Next year it's $192,300. Raising that cap significantly (or even eliminating it) would extend solvency for quite a while longer.
I thought it was possible a generation could have it worse off through an economic crisis or period of 70s style malaise, but I at least thought the government would attempt to improve the lives of its citizens. I didn't expect the ruling political party to be so aggressively trying to make our lives worse.
> You hit a point in your life, reflect back on where you'd thought you'd be when you were in your early 20s, and think.. shit.. what I do all of this for?
Do people who say this have kids? I ask genuinely. Everything before my little dude was fake. Everything since him is real deal Holyfield. Probably knock off in the next 20 minutes and take him to Home Depot to look at some bullshit because we have a good time with that kind of thing.
I would think those with kids at that age that wanted them worked backwards from that mission, and if they have a midlife crisis it's some version of having spent too much time working and on their kid and start spending their money on low-impact possibly expensive hobbies they'd have liked to do in their younger years, somewhat in denial of the fact that they sold their whole life to the man despite raising a kid.
But that sounds nice! Let me reword: after getting through the messy middle of establishing a career and weathering the insane time and money necessary to rear a young kid, a dude finds himself with a little more time and money, and doesn't know what to do with himself. He gets a fishing rod/road bike/membership at makerspace/skein of nice yarn and some circular needles/signs up for his first powerlifting meet. He makes new friends, shows his kid a new side of himself, and maybe gets a nice steelhead/race trinket/dining table/scarf/medal out of the whole thing.
Sure, seems like it would be a standard path in another time. The real personal crisis in that position these days is probably being forced to find a new career instead of or alongside raising a kid. Unless you get quite lucky, things can get dark very quickly. Job loss creates stress, prolonged unemployment might break up your relationship, lose access to the kid maybe, and suddenly you're destitute. It's hard to see prospects for normal people getting better, and it makes more sense to avoid the kid and the house.
I can imagine having kids is super rewarding, but also amplifies the pressure of being a provider probably 100x. In uncertain times, I think a lot of us aren't sure how we'll provide for ourselves in ~5 years, let alone a tiny dude, which plays into the decision to not have kids.
I'm still gainfully employed, and business is ripping, but a huge part of my value as a professional got totally vaporized over the last year. So part of me is extremely glad I don't have kids right now, and part of me is really angry that everything feeling so unstable is leading to our decision to not have them. I know that even in the best time it's a scary decision, but the general vibe is flipping people (like my wife and i) who are at the margin.
> a huge part of my value as a professional got totally vaporized over the last year
We are all descendants of like 1,000 individuals who kept having lil babies through an ice age. There are mobile home parks full of happy kids dotting my town, populated by people who paint houses and do landscaping and make ends meet. I have no idea what your profession is or what your housing situation is, so maybe that's already where you are. My wife and I talk gratitude a lot, and that includes being grateful that if we had to dig ditches to keep a double wide over our heads, we'd go ahead and do that and have some giggles with our little miracle in there.
Nah you're way off the mark here and this sounds scarily like how people feel when at their most bleak. I hope this is just you reflecting and not how you feel "in real life" - family needs family and kids need their parents. Kids need their parents even if they're broke and/or out of work.
I am in this awkward situation where I just had a baby, but at the same time feel I should work less and put less effort into work. But at the same time not being able to slow down.
I daydream about being fired with severance so I can spend more time with my little dude. But also deadly afraid of not being able to get another job when savings run out.
Congrats on baby and best of luck balancing this. In my limited experience it's the balancing that is the actual work that allows all the other domestic and professional work for this part of my life.
that's what I felt about moving to a different country, too, until I didn't.
I think these things are less consistent than is often stated, we just see them occur consistently among people with similar lives. The "mid life crisis" is also debunked and replaced by "existential crisis" since it can actually occur at any age, from teenager to elderly, and zero, one, or multiple times. Only in the classic life progression of a certain era, it typically occurred worst at around 40-45 so it got that label.
Yes, men who have children do go through nihilistic existential mid life crises too. That age has their biggest risk of cheating on their partners, fathering new children with work colleagues, walking away from marriage, developing drug and alcohol dependency, developing serious gambling problems and other worse things. Parenthood reduces but does not eliminate the risk of suicide in middle aged men, and parenthood plus long term joblessness is a common cause.
Midlife anxieties are real and nothing in particular prevents it.
Yes. Come on, I love my kid, but you can't seriously be asking this question. Fatherhood is in fact sometimes part of what they're so dissatisfied with.
I don't dismiss or discount your perspective but based on my social circle: Your experience of fatherhood is not the median. The variance is pretty high too.
I agree. I'm a father of two, and my existence didn't suddenly get meaningful when I had children. I always found it meaningful, only in the sense that I get one life and want to experience as much as I can while I have it. That is a big part of why I chose to have children, it seemed like basically *the* fundamental life experience. But for me, I didn't experience this sudden big gain in meaning that a lot of online fathers seem to have.
I also wasn't prepared for a bit of a curve ball and I have experienced a loss of self that hasn't recovered or been compensated for yet.
I often wish I felt like a lot of other online fathers, but I take comfort in knowing there are a lot of others out there like me who struggle with parenthood. I hope I figure it all out in time!
Only one kid and I can't pretend it is all sunshine and rainbows, but there are real moments that make some of the other things irrelevant. It is possible that I went into fatherhood older and with eyes wide open so it was less of an adjustment, but it still surprised me in how things slowly re-aligned. Meaning was basically a side-effect of near exclusive focus on someone else ( for me ).
And that was my long way to say, the struggle is real and we are all figuring it out in real time. gl out there
I’m grateful for your comment. I’m also a father of two, and the “loss of self” has frankly worsened over time (though my oldest isn’t even 4 yet).
After the second, I thought it would get better, and that a Contented Doting Father would emerge from the ruins of my previous life. That the attention and effort required would simply obliterate any trace of my past self, and with it, any longing for the spontaneity and lightness and frankly selfishness of my child-free life.
But that hasn’t happened. There are moments of grace and joy, and I love my kids so deeply it’s painful (he says, truthfully, but defensively, because an admission like this from a father usually doesn’t go over well).
But counterintuitively, returning to the topic of the thread, if I DO lose my career, I will be doubly grateful for my kids. Because they DO love me unconditionally, and I them; they don’t care about status games or anomie or anything resembling a “career.” Perhaps starting over in a new field and moving to a cheaper COL area would finally clear space for the Contented Doting Father.
Unsolicited pov. Don't do this to yourself. I don't doubt that there exists such a person, but it's not the norm and when it is observed I reckon it is as often someone feigning as it is anything else.
Love your kids and raise them as best you know how. That's the deal. That's enough. You are allowed space to miss aspects of your life before, and that may or may not fade.
I am also so grateful to hear this in response to my comment.
As far as I see it, I use the term "online fathers" in a rather cynical manner. In real life, I interact with parents who are struggling, I know some who are suffering from depression (I'm lucky to belong to a sports club where some dads unload). This is real life.
But go online and you'd think you're some sort of freak for not being completely transformed and having unconditional daily joy from being a dad.
By the way. The last week has been a good week. I've had a lot of work stress, but my children seem to have somehow sensed it and they're being extra kind to me, giving me lots of hugs and just wanting to be with me. It feels WONDERFUL. Like you, I love them more than I would have ever known, would literally die for them. But it is also ok to admit it is very hard, and there is a big loss of self and other aspects.
Kids loose interest in you as they age and do their own stuff. You are necessary for their survival, but they prefer company of peers. And then they leave.
All of that is normal, but you are left alone and if taking the kid somewhere was your only thing, you have nothing.
I had two kiddos by the time I as 23 and I'm in my late 40s now. I am super glad that they are off on their own, living their own successful lives and I am very proud of them.
You too will (hopefully) watch your children move away.
Personally, when I am down I've been feeling a little like I've finished the main quest in a video game. I can look to my kiddos and be happy that they are doing okay but I still have almost as much adult life in front of me as I have behind me.
While the philosophy degree I got when I was young has helped a lot, I'm middle age, twice-divorced, and haven't had (or needed) a "regular" job, bald (well, I rock a skullet and have 'aura' according to the youngesters), and I can't rock climb as hard as I used to. I don't really enjoy drinking anymore, and I don't enjoy many drugs at all. I've gotten to a position where it's hard to maintain the fantasies that make romantic partners appealing, and while I have deep and diverse friend groups, I still spend most of my time in a shack in the middle of nowhere writing music for no one.
When people shit-talk on humanities educations, it's been hard to keep my mouth shut because the real payoffs have been in being able to meet the long and large world with some equanimity and I feel incredibly privileged to have been so misguided in my early life that I got a deep and canonical education.
There are plenty of things that I can do- keeping with the video game metaphor, I feel like I am working through all possible side quests on hard mode. Being emancipated from my children means that I no longer have to earn very much money or even maintain a stable home if I don't enjoy it.
I bought some off grid land in the middle of nowhere and I am slowly getting utilities working in the shacks. I started doing way more direct political action, including getting an EMT cert so I could volunteer at the local free clinic. I have 4 bands and play 5-6 gigs a month and run an A/V company where I do another 2-3 gigs a month.
So, yeah, I've got a pretty good skill set, I have however easy a life that I choose, lots of engagement in my enclosure. I have kids I am proud of.
And even looking at all that, I look at even a couple of years and sometimes wonder "shit.. what I do all of this for?". And I know that in another 25 years I will still probably asking that question, wondering if there had been a better way to do the things.
Enjoy browsing stuff with your kiddos. That is indeed the important kind of activity. But also, understand that you too will (hopefully) face existential choices in the future.
Yeah I think having him later in my life and him still being a toddler just means "having kids" means wildly different things in our cases. In my case, the life altering pivots (getting sober, married, divorced) happened before meeting my wife with whom I had him. I guess I got extremely lucky having the nuclear life changer of a baby show up at the age where such a thing is welcome. We just started touring preschools and the rapid approach of a time where I'm not within 30 feet of him for 90% of the day is already a pretty daunting prospect.
Also to work so hard, and even when you have good luck as well, to see the people around you adapting their expectations so fast that they're blasé about what feels like amazing luck and success to you, and to realize that you can never satisfy them, only inevitably let them down when you experience setbacks.
>Is that not the epitome of the classic mid life crisis?
The classic epitome of the mid life crisis has always been something along the lines of, "I spent my whole life working and doing a job that I didn't like, sacrificing my youth and my precious time with my friends and family, and all I'm left with is money. My mortality is coming into view, my best years are behind me, and as I sit here in my big house with my fancy car, I realize I wasted all that time all chasing dollars."
That's a lot different than, "I spent my whole life working and doing a job that I didn't like, sacrificing my youth and my precious time with my friends and family, and I'm left with nothing at all. I have no prospect for retirement, will likely become homeless and destitute when I am unable to continue working and/or am laid off, and their is no future."
I think this is a perfect description. The feelings continue across generations with no answer. Meanwhile society continues to shift underneath mens' feet. And still tries to claim it is a personal problem. The browbeating/apathy continues.
Eh, I don't think today is really all that different from the last 100 years. We as software engineers may feel different as it's (maybe) our turn in the barrel.
Part of working through history from (only) 100 years ago is an impression of how quickly societies were changing then. This isn't the first time we've had the table cleared, and it hopefully won't be the last.
Which isn't to downplay the upheaval that people are in - it is definitely traumatic. But we've been through disruption before. Hopefully we'll make fewer costly mistakes this time...
> This isn't the first time we've had the table cleared, and it hopefully won't be the last.
I don't think we should wish such evil upon future generations. The industrial revolution was a terrible time to live through, and arguably was not beneficial in the end to humanity. I would be very happy if we never had such a change again.
We can separate the table clearing from how we treat the players of the previous game.
We don't have many coal miners any more. How do we treat the people who used to be coal miners, when we get to 100% clean power? If we are running society well, we give them a hero's sendoff and a nice comfortable retirement life. If we are running society poorly, we take away their homes and healthcare to punish them for not having jobs any more.
I have however run out of fucks and am ignorantly coasting and making optimal survival decisions only. Fuck the business. Fuck the career. Highly recommended.
Hah likewise. In the early 2003's I was accepted into two of the top compsci universities in Canada but was rejected by the government for a student loan (my parent's income was too high, the government said-- they should pay. thanks government, no shit).
So I put all my fucks into working my ass off. Started dishwashing. Became a cook. Then owned a bakery. Built up a portfolio, became a sysadmin for a large company. After 6 or 7 years the writing was on the wall that I'd be replaced with a call center and some low wagies so I left.
Been working a do-nothing laid back remote job for a year now and never happier. My only source of stress is thinking that giving a shit when I was young would actually lead somewhere when I had the rug pulled under me from the get-go.
Yup, I tell my partner all the time. I just want the new era to be here already. I hate this waiting. I'm very annoyingly optimistic and think we're headed for post-scarcity.
In wealthy first-world countries we're already post-scarcity to a first approximation for stuff like food, clothing, and consumer electronics (I do understand that a minority of people are still desperately poor). But the stuff that people really covet will always be scarce. For example, AI can't create new real estate in prime locations.
I'm a bit of an AI pessimist, but creating new prime locations is one thing I do think AI could feasibly do. I have been involved in regeneration projects for 30 years and so many of the limiting factors could theoreticslly be eliminated by AI.
+1. Also maybe it's an age where responsibilities start to peak. More senior positions in the workplace, having children, marriage, etc.
I've had a few stressful periods lately where it felt or feels like I can't load any more on to my plate and I don't even have that many responsibilities - no kids either, just an accumulation of small and background things needing dealt with. I think I do understand people who do commit suicide to an extent - if you add the above normal stresses of life to some highly stressful life events like a breakup or divorce and throw kids etc into the mix - and hey why not a pile of work related stress too - I can absolutely see how people get pushed to the edge.
Modern society has not been arranged in a way that sets people up for success. Staring at device screens for more hours year on year likely doesn't help.
I mean, I kinda like having kids. Even if everything goes in the shitter economically ag least I have something in front of me that is obviously going well.
> we are living through a period of time where success is very hard to define, much less attain.
Do you think this has changed from say 10 or 20 years ago? To me, I don't get the sense that there has been shift in the social definition of success. Maybe I'm missing something?
What's different is that people who thought they were basically on the "golden path" suddenly have no idea what their job looks like in five years or if it exists.
I agree for SWE specifically that AI is changing the career dramatically, and in a way that makes life less predictable. But I don’t know how the definition of success has changed - at least in America it still seems to be good professional job plus family.
Maybe spell it out in more detail? Forgive my inability to follow the argument.
My overall point is that what's happening in SWE right now is not happening (yet?) in other fields. And so we can't extrapolate from SWE experience to wider social experiance.
AI threatens to obliterate white-collar work entirely (whether it'll actually play out that way it's a possibility constantly talked about by executives and in the news), and that would plunge previously secure people into precarity. The idea this only applies to software engineers isn't true either.
> Do you think this has changed from say 10 or 20 years ago?
Yes, I do.
The goal is roughly the same: financial security, a good home, as much of a family as one cares to raise.
But for basically my entire life as a middle-aged American, there was a well-lit path to that goal:
1. Do good in high school.
2. Go to a university and get some four year degree. Obviously some degrees are duds, but basically any of them was considered a worthwhile investment.
3. Get a white collar job doing something intellectual. Make a decent salary at a stable company. Change jobs periodically as needed.
Now:
1. Doing well in high school is still important, but it is very easy for kids to get good grades using AI while not actually learning anything and not realizing they are setting themselves up for hardship.
2. College is so expensive now that determining which college and which degree is actually a sound financial investment is very hard. An 18 year-old-kid is being asked to make a financial choice with life-long consequences at a point when they have none of the expertise about their long-term goals to know what to do.
3. AI will very likely eliminate many of these jobs. People will be competing for fewer and fewer jobs and who knows what on your resume will actually help you stand out? Also, most of the blue collar jobs are already gone, either automated away (ag) or moved overseas (manufacturing).
There was also a sense in the US that even if the government wasn't great, it was at least functional and a source of relative stability run by somewhat mature adults. That is clearly no longer the case at the federal level.
This makes a lot of sense to me. I used to have plans for the future, I had the next couple of years mapped out. Then I tried AI and my plans simply dissolved. I have no idea what's going to happen now.
Feels like all the effort I put into coming this far was invalidated overnight. The writing is on the wall, and now I have about five years to get rich at any cost until it's all over. Now I'm firing from the hip in all directions, trying to hit something, anything.
I used to enjoy programming as a hobby, writing articles. It's all so meaningless now. What's the point?
I'm not sure a focus on getting rich is the answer, and you probably don't have 5 years before that window closes. I'm going to focus on trying to rebuild my business so that if other businesses were run the same way, we'd hopefully all keep most of our agency in the AI economy. If you can't build a business or a coop that way, activism on that front is probably a more valuable way to build yourself a brighter future.
I don't get why people say that they have X years to be rich. If the revolution is going to be that big, why do you believe that fiat money, real estate or even private property will be valid in that future? The owners of AI would have all the leverage, it doesn't matter how much money you have. And if AI is that revolutionary, it won't have owners
I am not sure if the success per se is the issue, but today things are definitely harder for many people compared to, say, 50 years ago for people of the same age. The available options for you, at age 55, are less with regards to success in general. And then it depends a lot on one's life too; for instance, are they single or not, do they have kids or not, and so forth.
> It's a psychologically very difficult time.
That's true, though it depends on how one handles that. But I think it is also clear that there are fewer options available when you are somewhat old already. People at age, say 20 to 25, may not feel a problem when they are gamers. At age 55, it is much harder to reason as to why you may wish to invest many hours per day into games; it just is not that productive, for most people (excluding e. g. playing to have fun, but that still does not answer the question of producitivity; I exclude professional gamers here, as they can often make a living just from donations, twitch etc.. but most people are not like that. Some of these gamers soon hit the age range 50+ by the way, I do watch a few of them every now and then.)
I'm sure some sociologists have written this already, but it seems to me that the people who commit suicide aren't those who are miserable and have few options. It's those who have lots and lots of options, but all options lead to unacceptably bad outcomes.
Microcredit in the third world is somewhat notorious for causing a rise in suicide rates. That fits the pattern: there's a huge number of things you can do to get money to pay back the loan, but if it gets out of hand, none of them get you remotely enough money to keep from sinking deeper into debt. Access to capital gives you many options - but it also makes it your fault when you didn't find the option which would lead you out of miserable poverty (which may not even exist!)
What any psychologist will probably tell you (at least, what all of them told me) is that clinical depression makes you bad at seeing options. Could it be that's in some sense a defense mechanism, trying to stop you from putting the really bad options on the table?
Okay. Can you think of some groups which have a low sense of agency/few options, yet have a high suicide rate because of their lack of purpose and identity?
I'm looking for evidence against this theory, so I'm very interested if you can find it. But I think it's going to be hard, because they're going to be correlated: if you have a weak sense of self and purpose, then very likely your options will all seem bad too. And even if you have a strong sense of who you are and what your purpose is, failing to live up to the identity society and yourself assign to you (because all the options you have fail at living up to it) then you could well call that "having your identity taken away from your".
> I'm sure some sociologists have written this already, but it seems to me that the people who commit suicide aren't those who are miserable and have few options. It's those who have lots and lots of options, but all options lead to unacceptably bad outcomes.
People don't all commit suicide for the same reasons. Durkheim's book Suicide which in some ways created the idea of sociology itself categorizes four types of suicide.
Durkheim's classification works as a description, but doesn't seem very good to predict which groups will have high suicide rates. Suicide follows some very odd patterns. For instance
* Black Americans have low suicide rates, lower than white Americans, who in turn have lower than indigenous Americans.
* The children of actors and celebrities have high suicide rates.
* Men have higher suicide rates than women.
* Wealthier countries seem to generally have higher suicide rates than poorer countries, but inside a country the poor usually have higher suicide rate than the rich.
* People with schizophrenia have sky-high suicide rates
The only common thread I can think of is a sense of agency - which means thinking you have many options - with hopelessness. When you can do a lot (or at least you think you can, or society thinks you can), but none of it helps with the things that matter to you.
* Victims of racism may paradoxically be somewhat shielded from suicidal despair from low expectations. But when racism comes with heavy romanticizing (e.g. "noble savage", "ancient proud culture"), expectations are not low. Yet, it's all too understandable why someone would want internalize these romantic, often openly envied identities, even when they're completely at odds with their material situation. You can't live up to it yet you feel like it's all you have.
* Children of e.g. wealthy actors are materially very comfortable and safe, and clearly have lots of agency and choice - but what do they want, when they don't need to strive for wealth, any social acclaim they earn may be tainted by the suspicion that they didn't earn it fairly, and they in any case are unlikely to surpass their parents?
* One typical schizophrenia symptom is sense of agency disturbances. They often feel like they are in control of things they aren't, or don't have control of things which they do. The former, combined with seeing bad things happen (for instance on TV) can really devastate them.
Sorry but it has very little to do with expectations. As a middle aged man you have very little opportunity to start a new career (regardless if there is even any remaining soon). In an absolutely objective way, physically and socially.
I disagree with a lot of these social analysis texts because I think they misunderstand a fundamental premise. There is no pressure from society today, on the contrary. You had that when we were living in villages where everyone knew each other and it is what city dwellers escaped from.
But this never had been reevaluated. Modern societies are detached, nobody really cares what you do, you don't know your neighbours, you have no "third place" or common place any more.
So norms and rules are far less pronounced than in any other time in human history, far less so.
If you go out without pants in a big city, very few people would care. In better situated parts, you can expect that the police will probably pick you up. In less fortunate environments, you would just be pantless.
This is the opposite of expectations and pressures. I think many just aren't really part of a society or environment any more.
For some that is a great loss while others strive in this state as well. For many having some kind of responsibility is a very important part of their lives, but modern societies offer little here. We optimise for as little attachment as possible to stay flexible and dynamic. That of course can be a pressure as well, but not in the sense it is often suggested.
But summarised I think the problem is fundamentally misunderstood: Society doesn't put pressure on anyone, society simply stopped caring about you. I think this is what most societal analysts get completely wrong.
>There is no pressure from society today, on the contrary.
What!?
The examples you give implies people are ok with being bums on the street (and if you think that life is "easy", boy, you're massively detached from reality).
Have you heard that a record number of people still live with their parents after 30?
Have your heard that a record number of people do not own their home these days? It has never been worse.
Have you heard that entire professions are being rendered obsolete due to AI and other economic factors?
Are you aware that almost nobody who is middle-aged (the demographic of TFA) will retire with enough money to make a living off it?
Explain to me how is that a chill, no-pressure life? I do not see it.
You might try to "akshually" your way into "but I'm talking about social pressure", but all of those things are social in nature.
>So norms and rules are far less pronounced than in any other time in human history, far less so.
Ever heard of "misgendering"?
A guy re-posted a meme (not of his authorship) and went to jail, lost his job, etc[1].
Two parents were arrested in front of their kid for complaining about their school, another guy spoke bad about his past employer (but not threatening behavior) and got arrested and his property seized, etc... [2]
Yeah sure man, quite relaxed times, like never before.
He means for normal people, sure if you go around assaulting people like you could in the unenlightened times you get more pressure. What you both mean by "pressure" is oversocialization you are just looking at 2 sides of the same coin. Well his point is more about people feeling uncared for, I doubt that drives people to suicide. One explaination is that is could this mental l strain could increase the liklihood for mental illness, but that's flat for men in the articles age bracket. You posit that people kill themselves because they have a tough life, again that isn't born out in the data. Indeed collecting data for this is akin to hitting a dartboard while drunk and skydiving and the board is 2 miles away.
The point of society you can increase "true freedom" by restricting people's ability to act arbitrarily, so called "naive freedom". If people can't accept that then they can go live in the woods (not anymore), the ocean, the moon? mars? or end it.
From time immemorial the winners shaped society what do you think happened to the losers? Just because we leave them alive now doesn't mean they can live in the new world.
Also "highest ever" among some specific arbitrary demographic isn't very meaningful enough to draw out anything beyond free association.
> "highest ever" among some specific arbitrary demographic isn't very meaningful
It's meaningful if you do actually happen to be of that demographic. It's no longer arbitrary then, sure, but I do care quite a lot if something bad is affecting men because I'm one of those.
Not only that, but many of the people I care most about in the world are men too ! probably a bit over half!
Also, how specific is "middle aged men"? thats a huge portion of society - I'd have understood your point if this was about like, people employed as painters in texas. But this has such a huge N, alongside a relatively unambiguous test (I trust reporting of these statistics more or less)
> The examples you give implies people are ok with being bums on the street (and if you think that life is "easy", boy, you're massively detached from reality).
I think you need to separate these issues. Economic pressure is a separate concern that doesn't stem from a more arbitrary source. A society can and should shield you from it, but doing so will always create societal expectations on someone else.
If you cannot provide for yourself, someone else has to do so. That someone else technically might be subjected to societal expectations to not leave you behind because he has the means to do so. Mothers still have large expectation on them on how they have to treat their children. If those run around freely, you will get a lot pressure in the US. Quite a silly country. But I believe this is an exception to the general development.
I separate purely economic pressure from the moral and ethical requirements you have today and these are clearly declining in my opinion. These were always subjected to change, but usually expectations get exchanged for new ones and old ones are done away with.
Weird gender science, middle eastern war or domestic politics experts are loud and they do indeed put forward expectations. But their ambitions aren't generally awarded by society, on the contrary. Sometimes for very good reason, sometimes not. But generally there are far less expectations for behaviour, expression, opinions. Also sometimes for good reason and sometimes not.
I think most societies lost expectations and care less about their environment (no in the ecological sense, but that too...).
Certainly the level of detachment and alienation has been growing for a long time and is now at quite an extreme. I’m not sure that I would characterize that by saying there is less societal pressure overall though. People feel pressure for lots of reasons and it doesn’t necessarily require the judgment of another individual observing them.
on the one hand, we're detached; on the other hand, social media in particular -- and the media in general -- has increased the amount of pressure and painted a picture of "who you should be". The expectations are greater than ever because we are subjected to the knowledge of the expectations of everyone across the globe, and most of what we see are the "highlight reels" of the successes (or people trying to sell us something to be successful).
Contrary to your premise, society today applies tremendous pressure because our awareness and the continuous bombardment of information, amplifies it. And unless you decide to go and live off grid, or you have a personality such as you can say FU to the world on a daily basis, it's impossible to escape.
there is a lot of pressure from women because of their hypergamous nature. As they make more and more money get better careers, thair mating pool of mdn they want and who also want them shrinks substantially
true but the pieces we value are also being pried from our hands.
I also don't think it compares to the industrial revolution, these are primarily sociological conditions - these suicidality figures predate the current AI implications.
No. All that would apply to women too. Men are abused in the West, oh for a few decades now. Women are taking all the college slots, taking most of the new job openings, having more sex and offspring, have more friends, are favored by the legal system, celebrated in the media rather than mocked and derided. Women have a lot of pent up rage after hundreds of years of their own abuse, now that the tables have turned, they are holding the whip hand now as it were…. It’s not anomie.
They aren't holding the whip unless you give them the whip. Biologically you are the one with leverage. Probably economically too. You're the one doing this to yourself. Either stop doing it to yourself, or stop complaining about it
That is a very interested lens to view this issue through, I hadn't considered that! I'm not quite that age, though I think my age can be discerned from my post history lol, but even outside of being generally impacted by this, the biggest impact I've felt has been how others around me are reacting. Half a dozen INCREDIBLE engineers that I used to work with left explicitly because they don't like how AI is changing the industry.
I don't know, it feels to me, in my limited scope of experience and view, that things are getting a lot worse, very quickly, and it frightens the hell out of me.
There are numerous NDE reports that say people who commit suicide go through extreme agony after they die. It’s never an option. Tell this to anyone who thinks about this mistake and it may help him. Although he should do his own part of searching and listening to such stories to understand how big of a mistake this is.
> A new board game gets set up, new pieces doled out, we learn to play the new game
Reminds me of this idea about sport / competition from the parenting book, The Gardener and the Carpenter by Alison Gopnik. She says that children must be encouraged to explore, not exploit ("play games"), without any end goal in mind. This lets them figure out the world around them and how they can affect it.
As "exploitation" (competition) is a means to use specific knowledge (performance) to achieve goals (progress), it will tend to have winners & losers. "Exploration", otoh, is choosing among umpteen pathways to growth and learning. Of course, middle-aged folks can seldom afford to not be playing games, but perhaps in times of change, they need to be exploring like children again.
Wow just a short reading of this wikipedia is fascinating. It reminds me of a thought I had years ago about what is lost with the introduction of abstracted currency (i.e. dollars). I assume this is an established concept, but when you barter with someone, besides the transaction, you learn about what that person needs. With abstracted currency, this information doesn't get transferred.
I'm 40, and I am not suicidal, but I've definitely felt those thoughts more than ever in my life in the past two years. I wake up two or three times every night from anxiety dreams. I began drinking too much, but luckily I was able to get out of that habit. Between (some of) the effects of AI on my career and hobbies, and the effects of politics on my country and even my own town, and many more problems, I can count more things I feel love and passion for that have been demeaned or destroyed in the past decade than such things that persist.
And this isn't even to mention money, and what my future is looking like, despite having every possible intrinsic and external advantage in The Greatest Country on Earth.
I've had one same-aged friend kill themselves, and I try to be attentive to the signals being put out by everybody in my circle.
Our brains are constantly bombarded with ever growing information and noise. With mindfulness, deliberate separation from most of the daily noise we can all zero in our own purposes in life. This hard, doesn’t happen overnight but with little steps and a lot of patience we will find that eventual purpose. And you find it hang on to it. I found reading the New Testament brings me instant peace when my brain is in turmoil.
Hang in there strong with spiritual closeness, removing noise and avoiding those negative thoughts.
It's ironic that the "acktually.." atheist/anti-theist crowd don't do a modicum of research when it comes to this kind of stuff. It's pretty well-established in the literature that folks plugged into a religious community live better, happier, and healthier lives[1].
Can’t wait for them to test why specific denominations have a positive causal impact on wellbeing over others. Mormons, Jehovas Witnesses, Southern Baptists, etc.
While we’re being snarky, should we talk about the people who are arbitrarily and capriciously removed from these communities during times when they need them most? Like women seeking divorce in abusive relationships while in a denomination that preaches absolute subservience to the male head of household?
> folks plugged into a community live better, happier, and healthier lives
It is this mainly. Community is the reason most people find happiness. Some people find it at church, some on a Sunday at a football game, some at their dnd game that’s being going on for years and some find it in their family. I am not particularly religious but I am 100% onboard the idea that community brings happiness. I find happiness in just having good neighbors.
That study you linked does not establish a causal relationship. It may simply be that the sort of person who is able to extract well-being from church is the sort of person more likely to actually attend church with any regularity. It likewise does not address the possibility that depression itself might make one want to stop attending church.
>Millenial cynicism is so boring
Yeah, it's always Millennials who are in the wrong. Fuck us, right? It's all good, we're used to being the scapegoats for society's problems.
I'm a millennial and I feel like nearly all the discourse about who is (generationally) responsible for society's problems is aimed at the boomers. And the zoomers to a lesser extent, though that seems more of a prophecy about how they're going to ruin society. Jabs aimed at us millennials tend to be that we're cringe (or boring), which I can accept.
> Of eight R/S predictors that were distinguished, only participation in public religious activities and importance of religion were significantly related to mental health
Speaking as a gay dude, it doesn't mean you have to follow a mainstream religion to find spirituality, especially one which tells you that you are an evil person because of who you are. Personally I've taken bits of various eastern religious beliefs which now form my 'spirituality'.
It's weird, its like there is some part of our mind that requires something spiritual to fill it, and has been that way every since recorded history. People have always looked for something higher than themselves, whether is be a god or gods, or the idea of nature or the universe, or any matter of similar ideas. And filling that part of our minds with a belief in something, seems to put the mind at ease in some ways. A lot of medical literature I've read includes 3 parts of yourself that you need to take care of: mind, body and spirit. So I really do believe there is something behind it.
It mostly is. Just that "spiritual" doesn't automatically mean something mythical like God. It can be politics, astrology, social justice, philosophy, etc.
Something that we think is very important to us and the World and bigger than us.
Have you not noticed the fervor with which acolytes of each 'side' preach the gospel according to their respective messiah? One can easily see similarities between sports and politics and you can't see those between religion and politics?
It's funny that exactly like those religious extremists and other extremists that associate any kind of queer person to the boogieman that tried to convert your kids and have depraved sex parades on the street, it's exactly the same attitude with people demonising any kind of religious person, as if all are the same. We all humans are the same, it's just who and what we hate and appreciate that differs.
He said something about moths and rust consuming matter and with that at the very least he pointed out quite clearly the source of our suffering in regards to the AI transformation
Not religious, but also not disputing that believers have lower rates of depression either.
Believing in a higher power has seemed to provide great comfort to a number of friends and family over the years. I went to a friend's father's funeral a while back, and I had to admit, the service, the way the community came together was moving, and it really made me question whether I should return to the church as an adult, even with my questions of faith.
The problem is that humans evolved to be religious, and you can't just ignore that and get rid of it in a generation or two. It is in our brains and we have to live with it somehow. So from that perspective ... maybe Jesus does cure depression.
Our brains are also wired to kill for survival, rape for reproduction.
Religion is a coping mechanism for some, although its trivial to ignore. Religion is more likely than not a con-artist trick, that has lived on for centuries.
Humans most certainly did not evolve to be religious. We evolved to look for and, if necessary (to our minds), invent meanings behind things which sometimes have truly no meaning at all, i.e. the existence of existence itself. We also evolved to be fearful of the unknown, e.g. the experience of death and afterward. It seems quite simple to see how those two things resulted in our eventual invention of religion, but we did not simply evolve to be religious per se.
The former phrasing has a sense of inevitability to it, for one. It masks the fact that people created systems to exploit weaknesses in human psychology. Evolution led to a bias toward unsubstantiated pattern recognition and simple explanations for complex systems, not organized religion.
If religion has become "a part of our brain" then so has slavery, rape and the divine right of kings, for the same reasons. Yet no one argues that we just "have to learn to live with" the latter.
It isn't evolution, at least not in any genetic sense, it's simply culture. People believe religion is an immutable fact of life and the only possible source of meaning and morality when their culture teaches them as much. But there are cultures where religion matters far less than it does in, say, the US, where people get along just fine.
Except some of us consider ourselves to be quite evolved, not religious, AND absent of depression. Maybe depression (or the lack thereof) has nothing to do with religion at all.
For some people, it is. There is a segment of non-religious people who do treat the current scientific consensus as gospel and moralize adherence with typical religious in-group/out-group dynamics, despite not really understanding or engaging with any of the actual material. I disagree that relying on scientific consensus is inherently religious, though.
Tell me, of these people who supposedly practice "Science as Religion," what are their rituals? What's their scripture? Their theology? Their religious doctrines? What exactly makes this a religion rather than people simply behaving dogmatically?
You've described people who uncritically accept authority, moralize disagreement, and engage in in-group/out-group behavior. None of those characteristics is unique to religion. You can find them in politics, sports fandom, nationalism, and virtually any ideological community.
Treating scientific consensus as authoritative isn't the same as treating it as sacred or infallible. Scientific consensus is provisional, evidence-based, and subject to revision. Someone can misunderstand that process or defer to it uncritically without turning science into a religion.
You're conflating dogmatism with religiosity. They're not synonyms. Calling something a religion because some adherents behave dogmatically strips the word "religion" of any meaningful distinction.
> I began drinking too much, but luckily I was able to get out of that habit.
Alcohol is incredibly dangerous after 40, particularly if you've got a history as a heavy drinker. I've had to cut back to virtually nothing as it's guaranteed to trigger anxiety and depressive episodes.
Almost all the premature deaths in my circle, including suicides, have been alcohol-linked.
Obviously, YMMV, everyone's different, but if anyone reading this thread is over 40, struggling, and still drinking regularly, taking a break can really help.
I celebrated 20 years since my last drink on Monday of this week.
People who want to drink--should drink.
People who don't want to drink but find that they keep doing it anyway, might want to check out what AA has to offer. It worked for me when nothing else did.
Yeah someone else above is talking about making friends irl is “easier said than done”
Yeah, it is. And quitting a substance (or in my case many) is also tough. It’s scary and isolating.
That said, I think modern people, especially those in the west where there is so much (often unappreciated) comfort and plenty, have become allergic to doing tough things. Comfort, like a crutch, has atrophied our capacity for discipline and determination because there is endless entertainment and consumerism to keep us warm and docile and distracted.
In my experience, tough things that require discipline and long term investment are the only things really worth pursuing in that, when I die, those are the only things I will look back on with a sense of pride and accomplishment.
I switched to NA beer so that when I did decide to “have a few” it would be a rare occasion. Then I realized that NA beer was doing it for me and I haven’t gone back. It’s not for everyone but it worked for me.
I quit 2 years ago. The juice wasn't worth the squeeze. Sad, to think at one time I almost opened a brewery.
And it's bad for you, yes, and that's why I quit, it was fucking with my sleep horribly, but also it's such a drain on your finances today. And given the state of things today, I'm glad I quit when I did. Saving a grand a year isn't a lot but that money is much better off being spent in a different way.
I wanted to open a brewery too! I now realize it was probably just fuel for my addiction, though I do genuinely love the flavors of modern craft beers (which have come a long way). But not nearly as much as I love a stable life lol
I was homebrewing for years in the late 00s and early 10s. At the time I was living in Santa Barbara, and there was a great community there, the Santa Barbeerians, and it was a lot of fun. At the same time I was roasting my own coffee beans and really into coffee. My wife and I floated the idea of opening a place with another couple but it never panned out.
Anyway I don't disagree, in retrospect it was all a way to drink more beer in different styles than I could readily get from a store. It's easy to justify in the moment but having many gallons of beer around all of the time is dangerous...
I wonder if we ever talked to each other in online beer communities. I’d think I was talking to myself but for the fact that I grew up in a place way less attractive than SB lol
How does alcohole trigger anxiety and depressive episodes for you? When I drink I get calm. Did that change at some point for you? Like, instead of drinking with friends you used it alone in the dark or something?
AI hasn't made a dent in my enjoyment of my hobbies and tech (the opposite, now I have more toys to play with than ever), but politics? Oh man, politics becoming the new religion has absolutely ruined pretty much everything for me.
I don't believe in politics. For me left and right are all *the same*. Just a bunch of megalomaniacs wanting to hog power for themselves. This extremely hot take has made people call me more names and costed me more relationships than if I went out and started screaming slurs in a crowded street. Because I am a "fence sitter" or whatever.
And I just can't handle it anymore, I just went full recluse. I don't go into social media anymore, I don't talk to anyone at a personal level anymore. Outside of some github issues and some comments here, I don't touch socials anymore. I am just overwhelmed by the level of vitriol and hate the new internet is based on.
Same, in many senses. But you can’t fully detach from humanity without losing your own humanity. Forget socials, and pretty much all media consumption, but go talk to real people, make friends, find an human partner. Even raise a family.
Sadly I can't raise a family. This January I got a pretty bad brush with death and got diagnosed with something pretty bad and I don't have a lot left. After 5 high-risk surgeries (because of the medication making me bleed too much) I finally regained some autonomy and can move again, but I can't have kids. My bloodline ends with me, and it's better this way because this is hereditary and gets worse every generation. My kids would die at ~20 if lucky, according to the doctors.
Even knowing this, people around me still called me all sorts of things for not having strong opinions on random political things or wars. How can I worry about that when I am going to die soon anyway? Got enough in my plate to think about global politics.
Jeez, in so sorry to hear that. I personally know multiple people who’ve far exceeded their “you have X time to live”, but in any case live life as best you see fit for happiness and contentment. Spend time with people you love and ignore all the bullshit that stresses us out. Best of luck my friend
Sadly, all my loved ones are already gone from the same illness, so I'm afraid I can't take your advice. All I got left is a couple online friends, my job (of which I've been away for too long due to the surgeries...) and my computers. I'm trying to make the most of what time I got left doing coding and art, now that my hands kinda work again. I found a box of very cool quality markers when I could finally get out and been practicing with them. I was always a color pencil/watercolors guy, but this is pretty cool. Since I enjoy drawing robots and vehicles a lot I've been combining them with metallic markers for very cool effects. I am also learning how to do more physical electronics tinkering and getting better with a soldering iron at last, repairing old stuff and so.
I also enjoy the new wave of AI stuff. It took a while but I finally got a little robot buddy like in scifi when I was little. Full offline. It's kind of a dum-dum, but mostly works!
Unfortunately it's such a negative thing outside of places like HN that I can't share that joy with most people. Also a lot of people can't seem to wrap their head around an artist that enjoys AI, as I mentioned in another post in the thread. I have to shut up about it pretty much everywhere.
To me this sounds like a wonderful time to go meet your online buddies in person, if that’s within reach. If not, by all means lean on them for support and friendship. I’m sorry to hear you’ve been dealt such a rough hand.
"Go talk to real people" is easier said than done post-Covid. I'm in a European university city where even young people are complaining online of a dearth of opportunities for in-person socializing -- there is a good amount of cultural events and cafes to go out to every night, but it has become taboo to talk to strangers there even among young people, and a single middle-aged man's attempts to socialize anywhere would not be welcomed. Even people attending the remaining hobby meetups are finding merely practice of the hobby, but not any meaningful social contact alongside it.
Social media is poison, sure, but detaching from it doesn't mean you can get an IRL social life to replace it.
This is a bait comment because any push back will just re-affirm your stance and I don’t know if you’ll find much agreement here otherwise. Millions of people died in WWII defending against ideas that are actively being brought by a clear side.
FWIW it’s not that hard to be a fence sitter and not advertise it to everyone. It sounds like either you’re hanging with the wrong people, or you’re the problem. I guess go back to playing with your toys!
I know friends and family with many kinds of beliefs, we don’t rehash why they believe those things every time we see each other. Humans are complex /shrug
I voted you both up, because you're both right. Those who aren't dying before their time have an obligation to their future selves to make things better. Unfortunately it sounds as if you have a good excuse to begin letting go of worldly concerns, but the truth is, only the worst people benefit if the rest of us adopt an apolitical perspective.
See my other post in this thread, for example, replying to a Ukrainian who's finding that people he thought could be counted on can't be. As I suggested obliquely in that post, this is because one-third of our electorate is either brainwashed or malicious, one-third is willing to do what we can, and one-third can't be bothered to care either way.
I can respect this view point! I don’t really get fired up against fence sitters, I understand not wanting to be part of the mess. …but at the same time OP seems to have lost all social life and has become a recluse because of it? That is an interesting outcome and one that sounds to have more to it.
I don't know how sincere this comment is, but if there are others thinking this way, it's a mistake. Nihilism is a dead end (or political cynicism/fatalism, whatever you want to call it).
Social media is a veil of manipulation, engagement maximization, and bots. Do not misconstrue it as any kind of real or productive politics. There is a signal there amongst the noise, but it's hard to make sense of if you do not have a coherent world model or belief system. You have to learn to cut through it if you want to keep your sanity.
Read my other comment in the thread. Why would I post a non-sincere comment on this anyway? My belief is that all of us, no matter our gender, religion, age or social standing, are prey for the political and "elite" class. And not only we aren't holding them accountable, we are fighting their fights for them in several fields of our lives in form of "political discourse".
My country has a very serious housing crisis, both the left and the right are contributing to it because both parties have multiple people who are "serial landlords" with several properties, so they only make laws that benefit the landlord. This is a known fact and there are huge protests ongoing about it to the point emergency elections have been called.
Yet, saying this simple stance just as I did now, that both of them are guilty, will have people call you an "ultra" or call you a conspiracy theorist, that you are a fence sitter, that you don't know what you are talking about, and so and so on. Like you have some ulterior motive or are a paid shill from the other side or making the logic leap to thinking you support the far-right for not choosing one of the two existing "teams". Everything has gone crazy.
I think most folks are actually in the middle and generally agree. Anyone who thinks one of the us political parties is completely innocent is lying, either to you or themselves.
That being said, I think it's worth noticing if one party does more bad things than the other and I also think speaking up with your values is worth it and maybe even a duty we owe the people who built this country before us.
Either way, your first responsibility is your own mental health so you have full support from this internet stranger.
> Read my other comment in the thread. Why would I post a non-sincere comment on this anyway?
HN is social media, saner than most, but I still don't assume sincerity.
> Yet, saying this simple stance just as I did now, that both of them are guilty, will have people call you an "ultra" or call you a conspiracy theorist, that you are a fence sitter, that you don't know what you are talking about, and so and so on.
If you mean people online, then that's expected. It's what I meant by social media being unproductive. Hostility attracts engagement and makes it more visible.
National politics is heavily influenced by economic interests, including global capital. And as wealth concentrates so does political power. That doesn't mean ordinary citizens have no political agency though, don't underestimate the difference you can make in your local community.
Mostly online yes, but even offline people have been in a very strange edge lately. Like, if you don't take a stance to one of the two main political parties in my country, that means you support the third option which is a far-right party. If any of the members of that party bumped me on the street I wouldn't recognize them. Anyway, once that implication is on the table people start assuming (and saying behind your back) very ugly things about you very fast, which is why I started disengaging.
My heart is with the people, not the corporations or the elites. I just feel none of the choices right now is for the people. I don't understand why that would make me "hate LGBT people or migrants". It just doesn't make sense to me. The team mentality of the whole thing has gone too far in my opinion. And I don't understand why people get so heated up for groups that don't care about them at the end of the day.
I don't even think I'll be alive to see another election after the emergency one next month though. So it's too late for me to make any meaningful change. So I'm just trying to use my remaining time to leave a bit of a legacy as an artist and programmer. Even if I enjoy AI. One thing doesn't cancel the other. I do mostly analog art and even have been pretty excited to try new tools now that my hand works again (surgeries obliterated my hands for a while and they are permanently blue-ish and cold now, but I regained some mobility this month). AI is for me "that thing I wanted since I was a kid when scifi had AIs doing stuff".
In fact, that whole thing is also another can of worms. People can't seem to understand I can be an artist AND enjoy AI. The moment I mention AI people start assuming I flood the world with slop and want to destroy artists, then they ask for proof that I'm an artist, I show them my work (impossible for an AI to replicate because it's mostly analog), they go "but if you can draw like this why do you use AI!?? You should hate it because it's against you" and they can't conceive that for me it's just fun to tinker with it and test what it can do for fun. Like I should immediately take an anti-AI stance BECAUSE I am an artist. The AI is not replacing me because for me art is a form of expression and doing it is its own reward. It's just fun. Both things are fun to me. I don't see why they are exclusive.
It's like there's no room for human nuance and contradictions anymore. You have to be in a neat little box or else you are a bad person so it's right to fight you and hurt you. It's "justified", you know. Even if they are completely wrong, they already passed judgement.
>Nihilism is a dead end (or political cynicism/fatalism, whatever you want to call it).
Nihilism is a popular, vague pejorative today but philosophically it's a serious answer to exactly the manipulation, engagement-bait and juvenile techno-optimism of our age. Whenever you're at the end of some moral or social period active, not resentful or passive nihilism, is a palate cleanser and necessary condition for revaluation of all values.
The kind of middle aged men that tend to fall into despair or suicide in these times are usually people who rely on some identity provided to them that then crumbles. Job, money, house, status, 'how to be a man' etc. There's something they're supposed to be like and they're not, stability they took for granted just stops.
And we're in a period like this across many dimensions, political, technological etc. And if you want to be sane a dose of nihilism is fairly important so that you can go on and construct some sovereign answers to all these issues.
Idk. The thing with politics is I see the bat shit crazy stuff that social promotes then I see it almost verbatim when I’m out and about IRL.
Family members post absolute vitriol online. Then they want to make sure you read it and agree with them at thanksgiving dinner. Any type if civil discussion of differing views instantly devolves into name calling and insults.
Best case, it's like a cold war. That's what it feels like in my family (well, my extended family at least, my close relatives all roughly share the same outlook I have). They know I don't agree with them, I know it, we tiptoe around it and silently agree that we should just talk about anything but politics. Sometimes it's hard, but so far we seem to have settled on family being more important the winning a political battle.
> it's a mistake. Nihilism is a dead end (or political cynicism/fatalism, whatever you want to call it).
As someone deep in nihilism and political cynicism, I can concur, this is no real solution.
The problem is I don't believe leaning into that world is a solution either, and anyone who says otherwise, sounds like my boomer parents who have Fox news streaming on their 80" TV that they update every year, in their 4500 sqft home.
I mean this genuinely and not to stoke a fire, comments advocating for leaning into the political world really feel naive and perhaps generational. Most younger people have a damn near impossible time feeling anything other than dread and sadness when thinking about the state of politics.
I'd love to have a genuine reason to be hopeful, but regardless of which party you believe in, it feels like we're all circling the drain here.
I was deeply cynical about politics until I joined a party. The idiots hid when I was around. The boomers in the nomination commitee were throwing posts at me. It was surrealistic and nothing like I imagined. Then I realized something even worse. There are no cabal of idiots. The older generation is not holding on to power. (YMMV ofc). It is some sort of deeper systematic problem with disengagement. And the angry mob knocking on the door really are idiots.
Yes. Straight up no roadblocks in two years. County level. I assumed I would have to fight tooth and nail for years and be manouvered out by some old guard all the time. It was nothing like I imagined.
Disengagment among voters and inactive party members towards active party members.
Trying to get engagement is like pulling teeth. You could be in a commitee deciding a thing, inviting the public to a meeting discussion how the thing should be done. Some of the few who show up complain that you are not changing the thing and just talk. Then you change the thing and suddenly, when it is too late to change the decision without a lot of hassle, there is way more discussion about the thing and complaints on how it is done, from people that are not aware of the trade offs or prior discussion or the whole picture.
Very frustrating. (Be aware of that the story is somewhat hyperbolic to make a point. Also, yes, Goomba fallacy).
I think the main problem is that way too few people are active in politics compared to way back. There are like no channels to reach out and too little every day discussions.
Yo I'm also strictly apolitical and never had an issue with relationships or social circles, I just tell everyone I meet that "I do not talk politics, because maintaining my mental health is a full time job without putting the weight of the entire country/world onto my shoulders in addition" and so far they've all understood. The radicals who wouldn't understand I just say goodbye to, but this hasn't happened yet.
For what it's worth I completely agree with you. Engaging in politics is a complete waste of time, unless you happen to have a platform with enough reach to influence a meaningful number of people. Unfortunately, almost all of the communication you will see comes from people with such a platform, and boy do they want to convince you to vote like them.
Once the political climate is polarized enough, choosing to not engage in the discussion about how evil the other team is will get you lumped right in, because if the other team really is evil and you don't care, then you must be pretty bad yourself.
The "Oh, but it's your civic duty to improve your community/state/nation (which obviously means voting the way I want you to, not the way the other half the country wants you to)" tries to frame political engagement as some moral good, but if they redirected the time and energy from political engagement to working at McDonalds and funding charity with the paycheck they would have 1000x the impact, even if you assume there is a Good and Evil team and they are on the Good team.
It’s a nice luxury to be able to ignore politics. There are people in some places who would be imprisoned or killed if the wrong political party came into power. A major political party in my country would love to find a way to deport half of my family if they could and split us up forever. I wish I could ignore politics and just stay neutral.
People often say this "I wish I could ignore politics, but if the other team wins it would be disastrous", but they rarely put their money where their mouth is. If someone truly believes that, you'd expect them to take actions that actually make an impact, working extra shifts to donate more, or volunteering with a party to help. Instead, everyone I've seen that says this just casts their own statistically insignificant vote and discusses politics with family and friends, resulting in no swayed votes but straining otherwise healthy relationships. Maybe you are the exception.
you may not care about politics but politics sure cares about you. i.e. those who don't pay attention don't get a say and only realize it matters when they're getting steamrolled. I agree with you about the fervor and all, that all sides bear some complicity in the current state of affairs, just not that both sides are the same - that feels like justification for not getting involved.
I’ve lost a lot of my spark in the past 6 years as well. So much has happened that it’s impossible to pinpoint one root cause, it’s all contributing.
Don’t know if you’re soliciting advice, but there are a few things that keep me feeling the way I did before: physical exercise, and live music. Unfortunately I find less time as the week goes by to dedicate to those things, but I at least know they’re there.
> I've lost a lot of my spark in the past 6 years as well.
I felt similarly and had a "crisis" point at the start of 2025. I realised that living a fulfilling life had to become my top priority, no matter how difficult or uncomfortable it may seem. Otherwise, I might not survive another 30 years.
Now I can see a bit of the mechanism behind the dimming of the spark. I had gradually conceded the direction of my life to external forces, and let anxiety and self-doubt drive my decisions. It's a great way to end up with a life that you don't want. I shudder to think of what it's like to do that for 20 years instead of 5.
Not to be a downer. It is therapeutic, and I exercise 5-6 times per week between strength and conditioning, but it's not enough. It's a short distraction, it helps me temporarily. The truth is there's something very wrong with the world today and the pressure we're all feeling, speaking personally here, leaves me feel like I'm ready to crack constantly. But I have a wife and kids and elderly parents, and they all depend on me so I need to keep holding it together. Somehow.
ive also been trying to find my mojo back especially the last few years.I do get major spurts of massive productivity and optimism like an unplanned incident that i try to analyze later to recapture but it crashes back into the usual with pessimism about the future. I've noticed publishing non-AI assisted writing (even without an audience) helps.
I'm 41. My youngest brother blew his brains out in July. My other brother has cut himself twice. I quit my job as an EMT because I'm in no mood to transport SI patients. I needed a job on short notice to keep making my mortgage payments, so now I'm breaking my body 50-60 hrs/wk pouring concrete with the Amish. And it doesn't even cover the bills.
I can't afford health insurance, let alone health care. 0 sick days, 0 vacation time, $0 leisure spending. Credit card debt ticks up each month. Retirement savings is a pipe dream. How could I conscionably attempt a family under these conditions? I'd never have time to be a part of it and would be plagued by the guilt of not being able to provide.
But hey, I'm told to feel lucky I managed to lock in a 30-year mortgage at 5.99%: If I'm diligent paying on it until I've got a foot in the grave, selling the house might pay for end-of-life care!
How were able to get out of the drinking habit? I have been drinking heavily on the days I work from home. Drinking really calms me down. I then watch Netflix just so I don’t think.
finally information is breaking out on whats happening to my lot - i am 49 had 10 yrs plus at faang early career, solid career progression later - cto for 2 series c startups 2 yr stint and i am not able to find anything 2 yrs and counting. this year is dead ~ cant even get a loop, my career is done for. From claude's launches in jan feb this year to oct world changed - now i am facing fact that i am forced to retire and will not find job i like - i am not fire type - i want to work - i still need some buffer for retirement that was to come from 5 yrs working and its gone. Every other person i know in similar boat says they are starting a startup - rarely i see one that is getting traction - most are just trying any random product - nothing unique or they are simply lost.
I turn 39 this year and am just finding more and more ways to become irrelevant. I can’t be the only one so these stats make sense to me. Fortunately, Australia has a good start on what mental health care should look like and its subsidised (or at least a few sessions are).
I was made redundant in August and despite being a 20 year career vet who has done many different langs, I still can’t find a new job.
My skills as a developer are no longer required because the all knowing robot can (apparently) do what I need to do. I’ve heard multiple companies now using it to ship stuff all the way into production without any human intervention at all. This feels to me like driving the car without holding onto the wheel.
The side hustle I had of writing books to teach people development is over — they can just ask the robot instead. I was writing a new book about how developers can train up others, but have put that on hold (due to losing my job which was that thing, and because of AI)
I honestly don’t know what I’m supposed to do here to provide for my family.
I've been through a 6 month long unemployment. Got let go from a company (along with the majority of the dev team) which picked up AI like a shiny object thinking it could do everything.
Then I got hired to a company which have been pushing AI 100% for like a year, not at the expense of headcount, but responsibly as the N+1th productivity increasing tool, like what it is.
It's a really nice environment where keeping and cultivating great talent is not just one of the primary marketing slogans on the hiring page, but it actually feels like it while on the job.
My talent is nowhere near yours, so don't lose hope, keep applying.
I think most white-collar people have similar feelings. I certainly am, and many dev-friends and coworkers have confided such to me.
My software skills are now irrelevant. I've accepted that the omniscience robot is a better engineer than me. No clue what I'm going to do next, but I have to figure it out fast once my job disappears.
I wanted a family, but I'm relieved that I don't have one now. I can't imagine the stress and pressure of that with how weird everything is now. I'm nearing the end of the timeline for that anyway, being in my late 30s. Probably a blessing in disguise.
I have a some good hobbies that keeps me on my toes (physically, mentally) and a full social and family life fortunately. That's what fills my cup. I'm not stoked about tech anymore anyway.
I have a hard time seeing how any other white-collar job can be as worried as software development. No other industry has the straight up replacement of their work, at a level, quality, and speed, that AI coding is. AI agents are literally better (when you factor time) than even some of the best developers I've known in my career. It's over.
Probably not exactly as worried, but given software development was the first industry seriously targeted by the labs, and given the mission of nearly every startup these days is "automate the entire workflow of X knowledge work role with AI", I can see why they would still find the near-term outlook bleak.
Have you used Claude to do system administration? Networking? It's definitely not just software guys that should be worried. And then there's management -- several layers of management can just go away.
While I applaud Australia's initiatives, I am becoming more and more convinced that a lot of people are already in (or heading towards) situations that the mental healthcare field can do very little, if anything, to improve.
Generally, very true in mental health, but moderately true for all areas of health: The idea “at least we have systems/doctors/drugs to help solve this if/when it becomes a problem” is a massive cognitohazard. You do not want to be on the other side of that fence, and belief in solutions there will slide you toward it quicker. Do everything you can to avoid it while you’re on the other side.
e.g. if you aren’t getting 10,000 steps every day for six months straight, you aren’t doing everything you can. It might not solve your problems, but you don’t know that, because you’ve never tried. If you aren’t quitting nicotine & alcohol, you aren’t doing everything you can. If you aren’t saying hi and being shot down by at least one stranger you find attractive every week, you aren’t doing everything you can.
I read your 'Leaving Tech' blog and it made me sad because it reflects a lot of what I'm feeling. Luckily I'm still employed, though it feels fairly tenuous at the moment
If it is a self-driving car then it can do recursive self-improvement. Then we are either post-scarcity or it kills us all. Either way it wouldn't make sense to worry about employment.
Unless it doesn't kill us all, but post-scarcity is paired with hoarding of most resources by the select few that control a surveillance state and autonomous police force.
Sounds like your semi-rural location isn't helping. FWIW I have recruiters in Sydney in my network who are hitting me up on a semi-weekly basis because they are dry. I think the situation macro-economically is just really bad. Based on the stock market situation this week, I'd guess it's going to get a whole lot worse. First, be thankful you have a clean, safe place to live with a healthy family and just do stuff. So many people don't have those boxes checked and would kill for your position. Maybe try another money generating exhausting activity like woodwork or something. Worst case you do it for a bit and it's not for you. Generally, trades in rural areas in Australia are in constant demand. I knew a guy who used to work for flying doctors who got in to construction management and is happy as larry and making bank, so it does happen that transitioning in from non-tradie areas can be a winning move.
I’ve been a software developer for 20 years this year.
I quit my job in 2024 and moved country to be with someone I fell in love with.
Last time I’d interviewed it was 2020 - yeah, I had my pick of roles. This time after 5 applications a day every day for two months plus Leetcode and System Design practice round the clock I landed a dozen interviews and 2x offers.
I never thought I’d have to send 300+ job applications to get a job but my wife whilst sympathetic opened her job applications folder which had some 100+ applications in her field (manager in tourism sector) before she received a job offer.
It’s tough, software devs have never faced that level of friction before but it’s present in other industries.
A quote from Churchill which I carry with me is ‘if you’re going through hell, keep going’.
I don't want to be dismissive, so don't take this the wrong way.
Perhaps relying on skills as a developer was the problem? Society and the job market told you your skills were invaluable, but what did you actually do with them? What did you develop that was worthwhile? I don't know, but you should ask yourself that.
Much of the demand for developers was driven by a financial market that prized your skills, and many people bought into it. We are seeing now that such value was illusory.
How many new apps do we really need? How many new advertising algorithms are actually beneficial to society? How many of the ycombinator projects amount to more than a way to enrich autistic kids at the expense of everyone else?
You need to cast a wider net. There are a million jobs out there, but the problem is too many in the knowledge economy consider those jobs to be beneath them. Those in my peer and family circle who work blue collar jobs are much more content than those of us in the knowledge economy. Their expectations are such that they find satisfaction in their work, without warped or distorted expectations placed on them by their peers or themselves.
I solo founded and run a men's suicide prevention nonprofit organisation in the UK. It's early stage bootstrapped at the moment but I have long-term plans.
I've facilitated 200+ talking meetings at this organisation and another I was involved with previously. Anecdotally, the average attendee at the male-only meetings is ~45 years old, has some level of issues with personal and/or professional boundaries, has had suicidal ideation more than once, and has made plans for or attempted suicide more than once.
There is some form of survivorship bias in the above, but I get a lot of pride from our groups keeping men alive. We haven't lost anyone in 2 years.
It's a responsibility and fulfilling, extremes at both ends. The key thing is self-management, and knowing limits. I learned a lot from the ASIST course, and I retake the full two-day training every two years or so:
Nice job. There's a group here in Australia who pass around crazy shirts with 'this is a conversation starter' aimed at men's suicide prevention. Neat marketing gimmick, maybe you can partner with them and use it. https://trademutt.com/pages/this-is-a-conversation-starter
Firstly can I give you a big hug for what you're doing.
Do you find that things such as the man-shed groups play an important part? I feel that life can be more isolating these days and where people move about more and life runs at a faster pace there is less time and fewer opportunities to fully relax and just "talk shit" with someone.
For me TV programmes like Mortimer & Whitehouse Gone Fishing are a reminder of how we should be spending some of our time.
>Firstly can I give you a big hug for what you're doing.
Always! Next time you're down in Cornwall, let me know!
>Do you find that things such as the man-shed groups play an important part?
Yes. There is a demographic of men who need to be solving/fixing/building, and that time (together) is therapeutic. My group offers a round table talking format, and it's built around common sense & lived experience with appropriate guard rails for group meetings. We also run walk & talk sessions where any man is welcome to join (with or without a well-behaved dog) for a stomp around.
This is where the 'straight ahead' conversations might happen, they're less confrontational than a round table thing. Both inside & outside events have the 'shoulder to shoulder' thing, that's a conscious decision.
>I feel that life can be more isolating these days and where people move about more and life runs at a faster pace there is less time and fewer opportunities to fully relax and just "talk shit" with someone.
To all those reading this thread, suicide isn't the answer. I know you've heard this and it's not special coming from me.
We all heard it's a permanent solution to a temporary problem and so many other quotes. I've lost a lot of people growing up to suicide and the impact it has on those who continue to live on that you love is traumatic.
The man who raised me like I was his son told my mother that he would never commit suicide. He had stage 4 cancer that eventually took his life on my 17th birthday. His reason for enduring through the pain was to teach me that suicide is never the answer because it hurts all those around you.
Although he passed away on my 17th birthday of his illness, he forever changed my life in so many ways. Each and every day I aim to be a better man because of how he loved me.
Please take a moment to utilize this time you have to change those around you. You don't need to create a massive company, be a CEO, have a career people admire, etc.. all you need to do is be someone that inspires others to improve like John did for me.
You're (maybe) missing something and you know what it is but maybe you're afraid to ask. So tell me, what are you missing?
For me, it was some sort of acceptance from my parents. They never told me they were proud of me until I was close to doing it. Just happened to happen and put a new fresh wind into me.
You'll have elaborate on "life is just too much". That to me, opinion here, sounds like "I don't want to try". That's suitable for games, but I think life is something special.
You really don't need to engage in the thread if it bothers you that much. Do keep in mind, maybe you're on the left side of the Dunning-Kruger effect.
Which can be resumed as "you are a slave and you must live and suffer because if not, the master will be sad"
Perhaps suicide is sometime the only sane answer in an insane world; Perhaps one must actually be sane to commit suicide (which is why there are so few of them, in the end);
Middle aged family men are kinda invisible. The government only sees them when it needs taxation. Kids only see them when they need money. His wife ignores him too, or rather, they ignore each other as roommates.
They can’t escape because all those legal and moral responsibilities. They have to wait patiently until retirement —- if their hearts allow them to live that long.
I'm pretty happy being invisible these days. I have to balance my business, family, friends, hobbies and interests (I particularly enjoy going to jamband concerts, cooking for my family, and I've really gotten into anime and manga lately). Sometimes I feel a little guilty being invisible because we kinda need to speak up as much as we can these days, but to me, invisibility is an asset that allows me to enjoy life.
Ooof, not even that old here and I'm feeling that. Things are pretty bad all over. Gets hard to want to be around. AI took my job recently and I've been moved back to helpdesk and just awaiting further layoffs. There's not much fun in intellectual pursuits any longer as LLMs have taken it all. All my fun hobby projects are just jokes now as anyone with money can easily outdo me with an LLM. Sad times...
Most of my friends from high school and college are dead from random cancers, or drugs, or both.
I used to love skimming the new preprints on arXiv in the morning but now the signal is buried LLM drivel.
The one hobby I have that is kinda LLM-proof for now is speedrunning. Tool-assisted speedruns have always had their own categories for decades, and even if the LLMs or their descendants are used for routing or glitch hunting there’s still an element of human execution.
I like JRPGs from the early 2000s. I haven’t settled on one that I like enough to specialize in yet. It’s a bit of a time commitment, as you can imagine.
I'm sorry, but this is not realistic. Life is complex and involves many variables. You are right to engage with this question, but you are oversimplifying to the point of implying dishonesty, if I'm being frank (assuming you are not very neuro-divergent!).
Not the author you're replying to but I don't understand this reply at all? What variables? What oversimplifying?
They simply said
> Why do you imagine yourself you be in competition with others while doing hobbies? Do you not find pleasure in the doing?
Which... I don't understand how that is oversimplifying. If your hobby is golf are you unable to enjoy golf because you're not as good as the pros? If your hobby is music can you not enjoy it because you aren't going to win a Grammy award?
If you enjoy programming or working on something an LLM can do... can't you just enjoy doing it without an LLM? Heck there are plenty of people that will probably seek it out because of how many people hate AI being used in programming.
It's realistic to want to be competitive. But as soon as your "hobby" becomes competitive, at least in this sense, it ceases to be a true hobby. It effectively just becomes work.
Nothin' wrong with the OP feeling disheartened by AI taking away his "hobby"/job, but AI will never be able to take away a "true" hobby because a "true" hobby is something where such external factors are irrelevant.
You'll notice that people who lift weights, run marathons, maintain a garden, tinker with models, etc., are effectively immune to AI. An AI won't lift your weights for you or tend to your garden for you. Maybe one day it could technically do that, but it doesn't matter, because you simply wouldn't have it do that for you. And it wouldn't matter if AI is doing that for others, because you're not competing with others. You're doing it for yourself.
There are your Paul Feyerabend s and there are your reddit atheists which the HN crowd tend towards, who simplify all complex relations in the world to Scientific, Testable, Linear logic. It may as well be as a result of the education system or the Industrial Revolution, but that is the prevalent logic in the world.
Unfortunately we do not live in a time of philosophy anymore
No pleasure really anymore, my hobbies were coding occasionally and there's no point to it. Anything I write will be outdone in 2 seconds by someone else.
Recently I started rebuilding a custom d3d9 hook for an old game and it was really fun and I planned to release it to the community. But before I could, many many others had an LLM do the same thing and my work was obsolete in a moment. There went that hobby... so now I'm hunting a new one...
I gain no joy from that, the joy I would have gained would be from other people using my work. Now they can produce my work without me entirely...
>Anything I write will be outdone in 2 seconds by someone else.
Then it's not really a hobby, no? Sounds more like a weird competition.
>But before I could, many many others had an LLM do the same thing and my work was obsolete in a moment. There went that hobby... so now I'm hunting a new one...
That sounds more like a job, at least with your perspective.
>I gain no joy from that, the joy I would have gained would be from other people using my work. Now they can produce my work without me entirely...
That's a job, man. Even if you're not getting paid money for it, you're not really doing it for yourself.
The point is a bit moot cause it's the same difference: you can get joy from a "job" and AI making that job obsolete sucks regardless. But if that's what you think a hobby is, then you don't have an actual hobby.
If someone likes digging tunnels by hand, that's a hobby.
If someone is mad that tunneling companies make it hard for them to find "hand tunneling work", that's not a hobby. That's someone thinking their work is owed attention.
Go find a hobby that you like doing for yourself. Why do you think so many engineers turn to woodworking? It isn't because they think they're going to compete with Ikea.
You can keep saying it’s hideous to feel morally superior for yourself but it’s not working here. Rhetorical analogies? There is no rhetorical analogy here it’s a fair analogy. Plenty of people take up woodworking and it is definitely one of the most impractical hobbies out there. Most people do not think they are going to derive net positive value out of woodworking.
Respecting the subject on its own terms?
What happened to you, did you just come back from reeducation camp or something?
We've thoroughly pathologized this aspect throughout history, but doing things that earn you societal status and respect from others is a essential for having a healthy psyche for many, possibly most people, men especially struggle when they don't have avenues to demonstrate skill and competence.
Doing things to share them with others is pretty normal in a hobby. You might be baking for friends and family or sewing clothes or whatever, and want to enjoy the recipients appreciation for it. If people don't accept your gifts, the satisfaction of it will go away, and the same is often true of small coding projects I think.
I wish I could take up gardening but alas I live in an apartment like most other people... I suppose you got me, I have no hobbies and it's just another reason to not want to be here. :) Everything is work and not much fun, is it?
This is a weird PoV - that a hobby is only a hobby if there is no community and you do it solo.
Sounds like you're saying tennis can't be a hobby. Nor videogames, nor making movies, writing stories, etc.
I mean, it'd be hilarious if it wasn't so tragic: hobbies via a community is still a hobby. There is no requirement that to qualify as a hobby it has to be completely audience-free.
>that a hobby is only a hobby if there is no community and you do it solo
Didn't say that.
>Sounds like you're saying tennis can't be a hobby. Nor videogames, nor making movies, writing stories, etc.
Nope, those are not conclusions you can draw from what I said.
>hobbies via a community is still a hobby
Yup, don't disagree with that.
>There is no requirement that to qualify as a hobby it has to be completely audience-free.
Never said that.
What I did say as that producing a product which is meant to be consumed by others and which offers you no joy if it isn't consumed isn't a hobby- it's a job. Money doesn't need to be exchanged for it to be a profit-seeking activity. And to be clear: I'm not saying there's anything wrong with that. But what I am saying is that, fundamentally, AI can't make a proper hobby obsolete.
The OP is disheartened because his "hobby" is no longer relevant because AI can do his hobby better than him. Just take a step back and think about that: does it make any sense? Can you think of a reasonable example of a hobby where this dynamic can ever occur?
Like, AI has gotten pretty good at music. Does that mean everybody who was in a band for the fun of it all disbanded because AI can make music better than them? Of course not; they still enjoy making music. Now, a band who is trying to make money off of their efforts may be facing a different reality: if people are able to generate better music than what they can produce for way cheaper, then staying in a band for profit is a hard sell. But note that in both instances, these people (who are clearly operating within a community) are doing the same exact activity, but one set of people are doing it as a hobby while the other is doing it as a job.
And again, to be clear: I'm not saying the OP's feelings aren't valid. They wanted to produce something that others would find valuable, and AI made their efforts obsolete. That sucks, and they're clearly not alone. What I'm disagreeing with is the notion that that is a hobby. And that's an important distinction, because the OP is claiming they don't have a hobby anymore and I'm claiming they never did. They should have a hobby- a proper hobby- because it's important for humans to have hobbies for their own well being.
I see what you're saying but I don't fully agree. Art is the obvious counterexample, like the poetry circles of old. The hobby was writing and sharing your poetry with peers. If no one was reading it, there would be much less joy in the production. That doesn't make it a job, it just makes it a social hobby.
The thing with that poster is that the output is not wholly art but also utility, so the AI could fully subsume that thing, if the consumers only care for the utility part. And software in general, qua art, is not an art that anyone but the author consumes, except for video games. So you're kind of right but also I think OP was using software as an artistic outlet through a utility output, which was neither a job nor is his current despair unfounded.
OP if you want to keep writing software for others you have to abandon the utility function and make art, such as games. That will fix your issue. And no, AI cannot make games as good as a human can.
> What I did say as that producing a product which is meant to be consumed by others and which offers you no joy if it isn't consumed isn't a hobby- it's a job.
You're literally saying the same thing again - that $FOO isn't a hobby if it needs an audience.
And, it's still wrong - there are hobbies that require an audience, and they're still hobbies.
There is nothing wrong with admitting that a (small) part of a hobby is getting recognition from your peers.
I’m just happy that, for now, AI can hold a soldering iron or operate a multimeter.
As for gardening: the town where I grew up has these plots of land for vegetable gardens There’s a long waiting list to get one. You should see how the plot holders compete over who has the best vegetable beds.
A hobby is something you do for yourself. Whether it's code, or painting, or woodworking.... you don't care if someone is better or faster than you. Unless you really see the hobby as a potential business, in which case you might want to reevaluate because with LLMs it's possible for an individual to do more by himself than ever before.
You can do a hobby for any reason. It doesnt have to be for yourself. He could enjoy programming but also enjoy contributing to the wider open source community. So it makes sense to feel bad when he sees another project popup and invalidate his work. If it was another person who'd worked hard and thought about the project he could at least take solace in chatting about their solutions but with AI its nothing. It just solves the problem and there is little to be gained from it.
Well, some hobbies are fun because you're doing something no one else has done before, or which is challenging to accomplish without a lot of investment in time and growing in personal skill. A lot of hobbies are fun because of the competition and because you get to be at the forefront of something. It's fun because we're all limited in our time and energy and choosing to spend time on something means you can do things that someone else who doesn't spend time on it can't. That feels good.
People who were in the demoscene took joy in learning how to make a computer do things no one had done before and push the hardware to its limits. That's not as meaningful if someone can achieve the same thing by prompting an LLM.
A lot of hobbies are fun because of the human challenge in creating the output and knowing it was only achievable because someone had to take time to create it. Having an LLM accomplish the same thing absolutely devalues the fun in the hobby. Hobbies aren't 100% just about accomplishing something for yourself, even though if you sway to much into doing it for validation or to compete with others it can lead to burnout and lack of enjoyment.
That's true but the point of working out for regular people is to benefit their body, look good, feel good and have that strength vs. the average person who doesn't work out, not so much to be useful lifting heavy objects.
To your point, a lot of hobbies are about creating something that wasn't possible before without the investment of time, which is one reason it's rewarding. If people could just take a pill to get muscles to skip all the training, I'm sure a lot of people who put in time to train regularly would feel cheated out of their accomplishment, especially if nobody could tell if they did it manually or with a pill and if everybody started to have the same musculature with no effort.
Well as it would so happen, they sort of can. There are lifters and bodybuilders in any gym that are taking steroids. Do they still have to do work, yes, but they can achieve results that are not possible for a "natty" lifter. Doesn't affect how I feel about what I can do, nor do I feel cheated, because I really am only competing with myself.
Ah, well I do nothing for myself sir. I work most days of the week and time off is limited. My company doesn't really do vacations. I haven't had one in at least 3 years and hopefully I'll have the PTO soon but never the money!
Do you not see a benefit in coding for the mental exercise and challenge?
Most hobbies are impractical... Machines can produce clothes much faster than a knitter, no chess player will beat the best computers, a boat can bring more fish to port in one trip than you can in a year, etc.
Actually much of the work to produce your clothes is done by hand because mechanizing it makes no economic sense when you can pay someone in Bangladesh next to nothing to do it. But regarding the other point, that has put people off things too -- Lee Sedol famously quit playing go after losing to Alpha Go, because he reasoned there was really no point when no matter how good he got he'd never beat the machine.
It takes a certail level of autism to be a coder because you enjoy it. Sadly many people went into this industry for the money and are now moving on because of AI. I say good riddance because when the AI bubble inevitably bursts, coding will be just us nerds again
> good riddance because when the AI bubble inevitably bursts, coding will be just us nerds again
Not sure what you mean by AI bubble bursting, but there is no way this genie goes back into the lamp. We now have Opus 4.6 level open models already and these are newer coming away, and soon we will have Fable level open models too. So even if all the frontier labs imploded financially today the LLMs are not going away.
Coding will never be the same as before, the sooner everyone accepts this the better.
Agree, we are not far off having open models that are superior to human coding ability. I’m sure this curve levels off sometime, but not before we’re superseded. Best to find peace with that and adapt.
The genie isn't going back. It will crash and burn the entire economy with it. AI hasn't significantly improved since gpt3.5 and everyone who claims otherwise is lying and/or retarded
Try see if you can find some physical hobby that has nothing to do with computers.
Mine is gardening. With relatively little effort, I can grow a decent amount of foods, much of it interesting varieties that are not grown commercially anywhere. I really doubt that we're going to see affordable humanoid robots out-competing me in this hobby any time soon.
> and there's no point to it. Anything I write will be outdone in 2 seconds by someone else.
That's OK, you don't have to be the best at any one thing. The important thing about any hobby, be it programming, skateboarding, or playing the piano, is that you feel personal satisfaction in doing it, not in the reactions of people to your work. Your enjoyment of a hobby should never be based on whether or not people like it, or even whether or not they want to use the thing you created. If you feel that a project that you are working on could be summed up in a single prompt that can be given to an LLM, then your job is not to work on the project directly, but rather to find what makes what you are doing unique. It doesn't even have to be technically interesting or bring any new ideas to the table, just the fact that somebody has put in effort into making something (regardless of completion or quality) gives it value.
I don't know if it's common but I generally don't like to be bad at my hobbies. I like it when I can do things well. I've been learning the piano recently and striving to play more difficult songs is what makes it fun.
Sure. But AI doesn't make you bad at hobbies. It just makes others better at it, and even that is a stretch.
>I've been learning the piano recently and striving to play more difficult songs is what makes it fun.
And are you going to give up learning piano because now AI can just generate piano music better than anything you can ever produce? No? Then what you're doing is a proper hobby, which contrasts with the OP who feels their efforts are no worthless because AI can just do it better. That's not really a hobby; it's a job.
Not liking being bad at your hobbies is much different than not finding joy in them because people do them better than you. I work harder to be a better cook, it doesn't mean I'm in competition with people who cook better.
And how would you feel when whenever you cooked something for your friends they would turn around and just have the replicator make their favorite dish compared to yours? Humans are inherently social animals so if the social aspect of your hobby (which almost all hobbies have to some extend) suffers then the hobby suffers.
Hmm.. I meant to make my point in isolation from LLMs. I definitely don't feel that way about learning music.
I do kind of understand it when it comes to programming, though. Hobby-like side projects often felt like they had some utility down the line, even if not directly applied. It's fun to show others what you've accomplished, to show off, maybe land a job from being noticed, etc.
I keep wanting to say the same thing. In fact, how other people describe hobbies is why I don't like the term hobbies.
I think music is a good example of sometimes you need to not have fun to have fun. Practice isn't really fun, but if you can put up with it you can have a lot of fun. So you can say that the not fun parts are part of the fun parts because it's what gives you the payoff. But when people then go and send you a Suno generated song, and say it's better than yours, it is them devaluing the "not fun" parts you had to put up with. I've had people do similar things to code projects I've done. It's a real buzz kill.
I also really value when musicians critique my songs, even when I feel defensive about it. Because then it's not about them devaluing my time, it's about them helping me grow, and they know how it feels to go through that process.
I exercise/lift weights, and you should too. My reps/effort/weight/PRs are a joke. I'm ~50% percentile on strengthlevel.com despite really fucking trying for ~6yrs now.
Many people are better than me at the EXACT SAME THING that I'm trying, at my bodyweight/age/sex. It doesn't discourage me. There is always room to improve. I track every workout, go to RPE 8-9, and try to do progressive overload. Seeing the numbers go up helps. I know it won't continue into infinity, especially as the decades go on... but yknow, I'm building a mentality here, not just a body. And when the weights go down, I'll be in the correct mental space for it.
I _loathe_ every. single. minute. of weightlifting. I'd rather be doing ANYTHING else. But I do it anyway. I think it teaches me things about life.
The only true goal is to grow and be better than yesterday. Effort is the reward.
Hear hear! It took me a bit but I've reached the point where I'm enjoying just "growing". I think we grew up in a world that molded us to compete, and to judge ourselves based on others, but I think with AI we're going to reach a point where our hobbies are going to be just seeing what we can accomplish for ourselves.
It helps to know how achy the body gets without it. In my case, the back pain I had from desk work is entirely gone now. If you focus on the form rather than reps and getting through it, paired with some good music, you can reach a focus state. There are off days of course, but I'm surprised that I enjoy it much more than I used to, where my motivation dropped off quickly due to being externally motivated (visible gains). Now it's kind of cool to just see your ability change over time, better balance, capability to do more advanced exercises, etc.
Hehe yeah. Perhaps I exaggerate with "I _loathe_ every. single. minute. of weightlifting." More precisely, I never _look forward_ to a workout.
I don't hate every squat. In fact, it's (I can't believe I'm saying this) somewhat satisfying in the moment whenever I do decide to go RIR=0. I'm wiped, but like, in a "hell yeah I did that" way.
But starting a session? I'm still as reticent as I was on day 1 lol. Maybe someday I'll pick up a sport or something as the others suggest, but I love programming too much to pick up other hobbies >_>
50th percentile on there is pretty strong! I've also lifted for around six years and I'm very light so my raw numbers are terrible but I'm still proud of them
Try doing some sports as well, I do weightlifting, but I do bouldering as well with friends, it is not only fun it also develops your strength in a kind of complementary way to lifting (also increases you stats on balance and other related stuff)
I have multiple herniated discs in my back so working out isn't possible. The V.A. wouldn't help with it either... But thanks for the suggestion! I'll be going the way of the people in the article so ya'll enjoy what you got! Many of us have nothing. :)
Perhaps my advice was too narrow/specific to my situation. If you can't deadlift, then don't. But there are many other things you can do, as the other commenters have suggested.
But if you're in the mentality of _not wanting_ to have anything, then all the advice in the world will bounce off you.
My suggestion, then, is to work on that mentality. Do something to get you anything, to get you out of that "Many of us have nothing" mindset. Build momentum. Physically doing something is often what it takes to break a mental barrier. The mind spirals and digs a hole, especially at night. But you get to participate in life/society/people during the day, which is why doing bodily things affects the mind and can break its loops.
You won't "win" on the first attempt. But you'll make progress. And the real win-condition is to keep playing.
The first step is always the hardest. I wish you the best.
You can't do any exercise due to the condition? No possible entry point at all? That honestly sounds incompatible with daily life.
Not everyone needs to rip barbells off the floor, there's infinite ways of doing resistance training; whatever you can manage is likely to help your symptoms.
That's not the population. It is the average among other weightlifters which is where you would expect to be. Most of the population can't do a pull up.
This is a good post. Low ego. Regarding strength relative to others, don't beat up yourself too much about that rating. It's probably mostly genetics. Just do the best that you can do. I checked myself. I am in the bottom quartile. Horrible really, but I don't care. I can see and feel the difference from regular weight training.
Two questions: (1) Why do you loathe weightlifting? Is it painful, boring, etc.?
(2) If you dislike it so much, how do you find the motivation to continue? Personally, if my motivation is low to do a particular exercise (lift or cardio), I burnout quickly.
1) Opportunity cost mostly. I suffer from a _debilitating_ case of zero-sum thinking. "If I'm doing X, I'm not doing Y." Weightlifting isn't (overly) boring/painful; I'd just much rather be programming, by far my favorite activity. It's uncomfortable, but my physical pain tolerance is fairly high. Boring is solved by having a podcast/audiobook going, but for the "big lifts" I prefer silence to focus.
2) I don't use motivation or discipline. I use habit. I'm fairly busy, so my mantra is "bias towards action". I could sit there and stew about how much I hate the upcoming workout... or I can wake up, do my morning routine to an audiobook/podcast, eat breakfast while happily programming, NOT thinking about the day's workout, then transition sharply into it. When it's time, I just fucking do it. It's like flossing. I don't even have it on a schedule, because I don't want to think about "gotta start at X time". It starts when I reach a natural stopping point shortly after breakfast, whenever that is. I have literally never missed a workout in years so _something's_ working. (To be clear, there are obvious exceptions for travel/holidays/etc, I'm talking missing a workout due to a lack of "character".)
It helps that my gym is literally in the same room as my devbox. I launch a Claude prompt/whatever, do a set, repeat. Instead of doomscrolling between sessions, I bias towards action. I keep myself too busy to think about how much I don't want to exercise. The only time I let myself think about "god I hate this" is when I'm seconds from psyching myself up for a big lift. I know that if I let myself, I'll just stew and stew and grumble and bitch and make excuses. So I don't give myself that mental space. There's virtually 0 time between my favorite activity, then context switching to "alright let's get this". No space for the "ulgh" emotion to creep in.
To use an MCU Avenger's analogy, I'm _always_ angry. I'm always hate exercise. But I box it with what I love (programming), so I switch back and forth with zero time for the emotion to permeate. For a moment I'm a normal happy programmer, then seconds later I stand up, take a breath, and go Hulk mode.
Is that discipline? IDK. It doesn't feel like I'm bare-knuckle-holding-on-perserevering-despite-all-odds. I just don't mentallay dwell on it, and when my non-vibed custom exercise tracker beeps (it predates LLMs), saying it's been 3-4 minutes and I need to do the next set, I happily ignore it, finish my thought/prompt, then do the damned lift.
---
Negativity over, my favorite exercise is Zone 2 because the inclined treadmill is at my standing desk and I can happily work while being in The Zone (in both senses). Zone 2 is the best. A cheap $50 Craigslist treadmill + standing desk will burn an absolute fuckton of calories once you figure out how to walk (really its more a march) and type at the same time. Honestly I could (and have) Zone 2ed for up to 3hrs/day for weeks at a time. I reduced that because I got tired of eating so much food lol. Zone 2 is the best.
Then there's the weekly Nordic 4 by 4 which I apply the weightliftng mentality to.
6 years of on-and-off trying and I could only get to p50 squat, and even being able to do that feels like a serious accomplishment. ... I should really get back into it huh
1. How utterly dogshit the vast majority of code is.
2. How utterly dogshit some of the most important or famous products and services are under the hood.
So what if LLMs can do something better? Our entire field and industry has been built on 'good enough'. God knows how many programming 'masterpieces' are on Github with 0 stars and 0 users.
I am more excited about programming by hand now more than ever. While I do not know what the future has in store for us in terms of careers, I still think I will always program by hand for fun just because I enjoy the feel of the flow-state/getting lost in something.
might be a good chance to sit with yourself and understand what you want to do in this life, we often think there is only one path in life and seek success as defined by society. Most of us neglect ourselves way too much, thinking we're seeking the right thing. It's a problem if we can only find joy in life in trivial things like work or even hobbies. It means we might be disconnected from ourselves. Also If you feel you need professional help you absolutely should seek it. Healing in this toxic society does take a lot of time and professional help can be really good sometimes.
I would have guessed middle-aged men and women, not just men. I think the reason is being the sandwiched generation.
Most of us had/are having kids late. Now our parents are old/getting old and in need of our support. Along with that, parenting expectations have never been higher. So between shuttling kids from one thing to another all week, and taking parents to medical and other appointments, there isn’t much time or energy left to enjoy anything. It’s exhausting.
Combine that with someone already depressed, and any unfortunate trigger could push them over the edge. It’s partly anecdotal and some of what I’ve observed.
Thanks for this comment, because I think it's probably the only comment I've read where the hypothesis at least matches what is seen in the graph in the article, as it's really only men ages 45-64 who have seen a recent rise. Rates for younger men 25-44 have held steady for about the past 20 years and are significantly down since the mid 90s and early 00s. And yes, this is an all time high for men 45-64, but that's following a large dip for this age group around 95-2005, and the current rate is only slightly above where it was in 1980. And rates are significantly down compared to rates 30 years ago for men older than 65.
>I think the reason is being the sandwiched generation.
I agree, while most indicators should point to our lives being good overall, Millennials truly got screwed by their Boomer parent antics.
I feel like in a lot of important things, we suddenly went from being too young to being too old. Now we have responsibilities, heavier than our previous generation, but mostly lacked the support to build a stable foundation that can help taking care of those things.
It won't be as bad for GenZ/Alpha because Millenial parents are much more empathetic and supportive of their kids. Also, Boomers take care of their grandkids much more than their own kids, and also the Great Wealth Transfer will skip most Milennials and land directly over GenZ/Alpha.
I am overall optimistic on the outcome of AI, I think Alpha gen will live in a time of abundance and great opportunities. So, yeah, we were the shit gen between two great eras.
The world as we know it will end by the time GenZ/Alpha are "in charge", they will never get the opportunity to say anything
As we speak, kids have been rapped by covid, lockdowns, meaningless studies, now jobless, apparently futureless and meaningless; That's 5 criticals years of their lives that is lost forever and that this generation will never recover from;
> Great Wealth Transfer will skip most Milennials and land directly over GenZ/Alpha.
It appears the transfer is not to their kids or even grandkids. It's going to rich kids and grandkids of healthcare executives. Healthcare and insurance should be a nonprofit service of the government.
Crazy that medical issues can bankrupt an ever larger share of the population at any moment.
The things that motive me to stick around are holding the people ruining this world to account, documenting it and trying to thwart their efforts, a curiosity in seeing just how bad the climate crisis gets (how do we react, can it wake us from our stupor), and a desire to learn and help others (whether volunteering or just life advice). An absurdist lens helps provide some levity and not take things so seriously.
I had to step back from my career to focus on a mobility issue and at this point I don't know if the job path will continue to be there or even if I care. I'm focusing on small pleasures for now - cup of tea, exercise, peace and quiet. Music and film help provide a sense of meaning and catharsis.
I'm 40 and am accepting I will be single forever. I'm in shape / constantly lifting weights, dress well, work hard on maintaining a good attitude, and am financially stable etc. But not a great face, and extremely skinny (Think Oppenheimer or Bin Laden), am not funny or charismatic, and am not into dogs. Dating is a kick in the butt. Women don't "Feel the spark"
I heard that before when I just started dating. I would say don't worry about the outcome (especially pertaining to one person - you know close to nothing about them early on anyway), just try to connect with people. In my case, it would've helped calm my nerves, which were a hindrance. I've been with my partner for 8 years. A given outcome is never preordained and you don't need everyone to like you, just the one that you click with if you don't let rejection discourage you.
being funny and charismatic are something it is possible to practice, same as lifting weights. From what you say, sounds like a high leverage thing to look into
Just do other things you like and don't worry about women. Relationships bring heartache and grief a good percentatge of the time anyway. Being engaged in things you like doing will bring you into contact with others and friendships or more may develop. But don't do them with that expectation.
If you don't know what to do, try to get involved with helping others in some way. It can be rewarding and give you a broader perspective on life.
> Just do other things you like and don't worry about women. Relationships bring heartache and grief a good percentatge of the time anyway. Being engaged in things you like doing will bring you into contact with others and friendships or more may develop. But don't do them with that expectation.
I can confirm that this is how I am generally happy in life as a single. Underrated advice.
> Just do other things you like and don't worry about women.
Just want to pile on here and say that this is absolutely crucial, both for your chances of eventually finding someone and if not that, for your own sanity.
1. if you go into activities with the ulterior motive of meeting someone, you're not going to be satisfied by the activity itself which will cause resentment.
2. people can sense when your heart isn't really into what you're doing, and this will defeat your purpose entirely causing #1
You really have to accept that you may never find someone to properly get into this mindset though, and that's really hard. But it's a choice and I'm convinced that it's the correct one.
> You really have to accept that you may never find someone to properly get into this mindset though
I think this is only because the bulk of the advice in this area is to tell men to become more attractive (cf. "looksmaxxing"), change hobbies, attitudes, etc. That, or resenting women. Most would rather live on hope than fundamentally change their outlook.
DON'T DO ONLINE DATING. Online dating has wrecked mating except for the most attractive 5%. Online dating is mostly a looks competition as first step. And you are saying you don't have the looks to win that game, so you need to play a different type of mating game.
Go to meetups instead via meetup.com and also look for local group activities happening on EventBrite - don't make finding a partner the focus or even the objective - go to a ton of meetups doing the things you love doing.
People form relationships doing common interests and having shared experiences. Have shared experiences with people and take finding a partner off the agenda - just enjoy the company of others. You never know what might happen but don't go looking for it.
I can tell you this for sure - many women are looking for a partner of character - someone kind who actually wishes to engage in relationship - a genuine person - and if time is taken to form relationship well in advance of the "will you be my girlfriend" pressure, then how you look is very often just not an issue. Have you noticed how when you get to know someone you see their character as much as their outward appearance? You might need to let people learn who you are gently and over time.
As for being charismatic or funny, as Oscar Wilde said: Be yourself - everyone else is taken.
The best thing you do is to just grow your network until you find someone you like.
Whenever I go out, I always collect phone numbers and contacts if I can.
Before you know it, you have 100s of people on your phone. Befriending women is also excellent, they can introduce you to other women if they feel like you are worthy!
I have a number of family and friends who met online through video games or through online matchmaking websites (and one even through a dating app, starts with an H).
Successful, long term, loving and happy relationships. Not top 5% most attractive people. Mostly nerds, some overweight, some not.
A helpful thought for me was that literally everyone could reject you, except one person, and that's all you need is just that one person. Also along with that principle, maybe 99% of people actually aren't a good match for me, so if I mostly don't "click" with other people, that's totally fine — I don't know if I would want to be with 99% of possible people myself even if they were interested in me. It's just about finding the right kind of person that's similar to you. People with unique attributes may find someone else with the same unique attributes, or the other person may possess unique attributes that might somehow be a good fit for your unique attributes.
I am funny and at least somewhat charismatic but I'm gay and gay dating is simply broken. Both online and physical places focus on quick, cheap, sexual encounters. Meeting dudes outside of gay spaces results in max 5% chance that dude is also gay, which is a pathetic thing to be working with. I'm really not convinced that this life is worth living.
The most terrifying realization is that I've already spent pretty much half of my life yearning for love and not getting it. Even if I magically get married soon, it'll feel like a consolation prize.
That is a great anecdote/perspective to hear, although depressing. My working model was that gay dating is completely different from straight dating; the dynamics which I lament don't apply, but... different from a bad scenario doesn't mean a good one, which I think is going on!
How are you extremely skinny? Do you have a digestive issue or something?
I struggled with weight gain for many years due to crippling IBS but I found some relief while bulking from a certain probiotic. (Got lucky - dozens of things I tried including fodmap, etc. never worked. That said, the probiotic only helps - not solves... and doesn't solve my absorption issues)
Surgery, steroids, and a serious bulk are in order if you're serious.
Great question! No medically diagosed/diagnosable condition for better or for worse; someone's got to represent the 3σ end of the normal distribution right?
I can make the pounds go up or down in a few weeks by eating more or less, but it goes mostly to the gut (Skinny fat = probably the worst look), and just enough to pad the arm muscles so it looks like I've never been to the gym in my life! Lately have just been embracing it and staying lean (Looks like 12% maybe?) while working out as much as I can stand.
I was about to do the steroids... (low dose test) I suspect that would genuinely fix it. But when I got the blood test back, test was smack in the middle of the normal range! So would have to shop around a bit, and trying not to lose my hair. But may still do it. A bulk counter-intuitively is not the move because it would just put me back in skinny-fat land.
This is so weird to me if you're always working out as you said. What are you doing at the gym? Compound barbell movements with heavy weights will absolutely prevent this and get you jacked in the right places.
It's not guaranteed. People are abnormal. I'm abnormal and don't gain muscle like others and I am constantly training to failure.
Gaining muscle becomes really complicated for some people since not everyone has the same hormones, androgen receptor density, myostatin levels, etc. Some people grow like freaks and others never do. I can sympathize but I am skeptical of 99% of people since most I've seen also don't do every thing right and it's clear that's usually the issue.
- Dumbell and smith machine squats
- 10-30 degree incline bench
- Dumbell lunges
- Overhead press with dumbells
- Planks
- Situps: Straight, bent, and normal legs
- Dead hangs
- Pullups with 3 grips
- Leg lifts while hanging
- Lat raises, forward and bent over
- Behind-the-back cable extensions
- Tricip cable pulldowns
- SKull crushers
- Dumbell curls, one hand at a time
That is way too much, of the wrong type. You're doing a lot of isolation work, but really you should be focusing on compound lifts with the barbell. Check out Stronglifts 5x5 for example.
Valid. Part of the problem is, I'm working with what I have in the apartment and apartment gym; the best workout is the one you can do on the way to the bathroom / between desk chair and washing the dishes / continuously throughout the day whenever you have a moment, or after work with no hassle? But it's a tradeoff, as you imply. The other aspect is, I've been training with appearance (especially to women) in mind as that's the goal, e.g. with extra attention to lats, upper chest, and delts. Would love to/should do more compound lift. (Don't have a full bar available atm)
> the best workout is the one you can do on the way to the bathroom
Absolutely not. This is what you tell sedentary people to get them to move a bit. For your purpose of looking good, you're wasting your time. You need to add weight every workout.
> I've been training with appearance (especially to women) in mind
That is the wrong mindset, but then again what I told you earlier will give you the appearance you seek. Seriously just go to a proper gym with a barbell.
Regexorcist is right. You need to increase weight every week. Try going to the gym religiously for 1 year, with proper progressive overload. I'm not saying that you will be big, but if all you have done is the listed exercises at home, without progressive overload, you didn't really try
You can avoid the downsides by being very informed. Sounds like you're still early in the journey.
I sympathize with being 3 sigma on the distribution... I'm four sigma out myself. My total T is around 1200ng/dl with most everything in my bloodwork related to hormones being a genetic freak. And, yes, I'm natural. Even with my extremely high T - probably twice yours - I struggle to gain any muscle at all and look like I've never lifted a weight in my life.
I'm still doing steroids next year because I'm tired of not seeing results for my insane effort.
If you're just growing in the stomach then you're doing something wrong. Check macros - should be overly high protein. Eat only 500 calories surplus per day. Your stomach will get larger just from food volume. Your stomach will always be large if you're on a bulk - it's supposed to be full all the time.
After you gain 20lb over about 20 weeks - reasses. As it is - it sounds like you haven't done really serious tracking. When I'm bulking/cutting - I don't eat anything unless every ingredient goes on a scale and I track everything down to the gram. One way to make less lifestyle less painful is to do meal prep and label all your meal tins with the macros. (Or just be obnoxious and measure everything out where each tin is the exact same - harder to do)
Get a dexascan a couple weeks into your bulk then a couple months in. You'll be able to tell if you're only gaining fat or if you're gaining lean body mass. Same process with cutting. Your eyes might not be well trained.
That is a fantastic insight, and a wild natural T level, especially with the low muscle gain! (As you inferred I measured at 650ng/dL with sample size 1; not sure how it flows with time; didn't get a free-test measurement, but should do that; kind of curious how that plays into your situation too) I was expecting to measure low based on the muscle thing + generally low-superficial-T features like minimal facial hair, and low body hair/thin eyebrows, then would have gone straight to it, but... I paused to reconsider after the measurement.
Doctors don't take stuff like this seriously (Varies wildly, but I have a number of family/friends who are doctors, and was in a military field under flight doc supervision/physicals for most of my career). I imagine it's not on their list of medically significant conditions as it's a superficial one. They deal with things that cause immediate or future health problems (or med disqualification for the job), or effect quality-of-life directly. Being extremely skinny (High or normal test for us respectively!) doesn't register as it's superficial/aesthetic. I wonder if your hormone-related identification would be more actionable as you have that number? While 6'2 / 130lbs (Not sure your example) is extremely rare, without any direct consequences on health, it doesn't register. Nothing to fail me on a physical for, no treatment plans that fit, and doesn't pattern match with people checking into hospital.
I think re growing the stomach - I meant more that responds very quickly to changes in diet in either direction; I can go from pudgy/belly to flat abs in a few weeks. I'm hoping the ab work will help a bit with overall look in well-fitting clothes or shirtless, and help with rib flare, but it's probably skippable compared to the bigger lifts.
For the macros, you're right: I have not being doing any tracking. I have been (For the past 6 months when I did a big shift) eating slowly, and paying attention to hunger/satiation signals. No longer finishing a meal just because it tastes good, if I'm no longer hungry. I have cut out all carbs-sans-fiber. No sugary foods (other than fruit, dark chocolate etc), no refined grains unless eating out. Lots of veggies, meat, eggs, and fruit + whey shakes. So, high protein, high fiber, normalish carbs and fat. As you say, probably need to load on the protein more. (More meat/whey/eggs/peanut butter?) How has the tracking worked out for you; any insights? I'm curious about the effort involved, and accuracy of any numbers put in.
I should do the dex! I'm curious; just looked up; $130 near me; will do it! The 12% estimate was based on visual cues like bicep vein, muscle definition, appearance of facial bones/masceters etc. If I eat lazily, it goes up to probably 18-20%; then I look like I have never seen a gym. Would love to see the actual number.
What is stopping you from doing the steroids now? Test or a mix? Worried about the hairline / body hair or negative face shape changes? I am giving this one final push, then will probably hop in in 1-2 years if this still isn't working. My lifts have stayed the same or gone slightly up while I've been getting lean. The lean thing for is a realization that I am accepting the build, and don't want to hide the muscles I have. I love the way I look without a shirt or in tight-fitting clothes now, but still have an extreme BMI.
Btw, that last point seems to be also one of those counter-intuitive things: For the ultra-skinny (Or maybe more acurrately for anyone who's lean, but has some muscles), looking good without a shirt or in form-fitting clothes is a completely different beast from not. Can go from "Looks fit" to "Doesn't know what a gym" is from a change of clothes alone!
Valid - no, and I should probably do that. You're right that it's worth trying, and I haven't done it. The short-term skinny fat / gut+love handles is obviously a non-factor if part of a bulk where I could remove it later.
No idea. Just kept trying shit from random reddits. One recommended something with a certain strain. The digestive advantage 4 in 1 seemed to help for a while. It has BC30, GBI30, 6086. I can't remember which was less common in probiotics but one of those apparently was the one that would help me.
I didn't even think that these things had "different strains" - I thought they were just random junk mail spam they'd throw in your gut but I guess some are concentrated with different bacteria that can help me. Honestly I should get back on it because I've been suffering greatly lately.
Just visit/move to Philippines/China or (South) East Asia in general, if you are 40 (and white) you will have absolutely zero problems to find someone who will make you happy, though I would be realistic about age difference, which will either make you walking ATM or real partner.
Unironically, i have experienced this unwillingly.
I am a westerner and recently traveled to some science conference and casually met this Indian girl (living in India, she travelled to the conference as well), about 24 years old and we clicked immediately. We ended up talking a lot and we had vastly more aligned life goals (having kids, starting a family etc) than i have with my average western female co-workers or women i meet outside work.
Unironically I’m starting to believe i might have to move east if i want to start a family.
in the west you have better odds the woman has similar or even higher living standard and income than you, so there is lower chance you will become walking ATM regardless of age difference (though obviously with 20 years younger woman it is very likely it will happen even in the west)
Hah yea odd examples, but they're the only two people I can think of who have my build. (I'm between them on height and total pounds, but that is the level of extreme skinny)
That's OK, most of the single woman I know don't care if you like pets or not. As for how you look that's not a huge problem - again most of those same women have expectations in the looks department that are best described as average. And you're gainfully employed! This is better and better.
The only thing I can suggest is to put yourself in a position to meet more women because the more actual real life women you meet the better the chance of finding one that feels that spark.
So far as I know (and maybe you can come up with more) there are two solid ways of meeting women. One is to hang out where they are. This is tricky because the closer this gets to a cattle call (think going out to a bar ) the more artificial and tricky this gets. Dating apps are like that but in spades.
Option two is those woman who didn't "feel the spark". Here me out.
Here's what you say. "This clearly isn't working out for you. But rather then this being a total loss, want to get to get together with some friends of mine and just hang out as friends?" or even, "Hey, you have friends - maybe there's no spark here but how about if I hang out with your friends?".
See, if you have female friends it's like another person helping you find someone to be not single with. Woman are a gregarious lot and they tend to both know a lot of people and to know a lot of women. I trust that it's not hard to see how this can work.
Eh, that's how it worked for me but your millage may vary.
Hah, I think this is regional, and age-dependent. I mentioned it because ~60% of my Hinge matches have 1 or more dogs, and about half of those have something explicitly stating "If you don't love dogs / my dog, it won't work". At least 2/6 pics will have the dog in it.
44, unemployed since July, on a cross country train trip trying to decide if it is worth going on. Stood on a bridge a bit too long the other day just wondering what the point is.
It is over for a lot of us in IT. It isn't going to get better, it is going to get worse very quickly. Rather than tell myself a convenient lie, I'd rather try to figure out why to keep living in a world like this.
Anyone going through the same thing, I hope you find something worth living for.
I would rather recommend flying to Southeast Asia, much better value for your money, you can stay there easily 5-10 times longer for the same money as in the US, while experiecing different cultures/cuisines to get different perspective on life.
That sounds like a good deal! Staying with friends and family sounds like good company, and saves on costs.
Plenty of good weather down in Yuma. Sunniest city on earth! You got friends/family there too?
Have you watched any videos by @AdamDoesNotExist on YouTube [0]? He does some random/crazy Amtrak trips, but apart from that I enjoy his nice habit of when things going wrong of saying "and that's ok because ...", trying to find some good in the bad.
p.s. ignore sibling that comment criticising your trip
I'm 40; multiple disabilities due to a rare disease with no cure and neurodivergent. I live in a autocratic third-world country. I had to shutdown my startup for which I had put everything due to my health complications.
I was lost and didn't see any meaning to life, until;
I met this women, with a progressive muscle wasting rare-disease without cure which would eventually make her bed-ridden. Apart from regular work, she works day and night to help people with same disease as hers.
She's always jovial and never seen her complain. Watching her, my problems became minuscule. We fell in love and got married.
I have found my new meaning for life.
P.S. My username is my name, feel free to reach out.
Absolutely not trying to downplay your feelings about this, but was your career really the only thing you were living for? I just find it so hard to relate to. There's so many other activities that bring meaning to life. Try a dance class
What if, in a year, the labor market impact is significant across the board and unemployment is reaching historic heights?
The government should provide the financial support and implement mechanisms for distributing AI-generated wealth more broadly, as planned in the policy proposals Anthropic and OpenAI publish.
I am truly optimistic about the future, and I think it is too early to say that things are not going to get better.
We could very well have a nice life with minimal requirement to work for salary in the near future.
Hey Herman, saw your post on an X post today, i'm from Argentina and wanted to reach out. Never used this forum before but registered to talk to you. I know these are strage times with maybe more uncertainty than has ever been before in human history (i know i may be too dramatic with that statement, humany has had dark times before)
Still, even in these strange days we are living on, I know and i'm certain that all of us have something to live for, call it a purpose, call it a calling, but there is one, for me and there is one for you. We are more than a career, a job, or a talent. I understand it may be hard to see that if we commited a big part of our lives to that career, but as long as we breath, we have the chance to take new decissions.
I truly hope you find that, it make take some time, but it is there. I'll pray for you man, i know God has a purpose for you, and He knows you, and loves you.
Please feel free to reach out to me, you can find me on X at @santiagosas1 or IG at @santiagosas
I’m college educated, have a successful career doing things that I enjoy to a decent degree, have a wonderful house, wife and kid. If you showed my life to my younger self and asked “would you take this life?” I would have answered every single time wholeheartedly “yes! I’m living the dream!”
But I only recently truly accepted that the life I am living (and have created for myself and family) is actually the dream. We so often miss the greatest times in our lives because we are too focused on the unknowns of the future.
This rings true for me - I wish I could go back and tell my younger self not to prevaricate over trivialities. Maybe it's rose colored glasses but those times feel very idyllic otherwise.
I think this rings true for many people, but the mind works in mysterious ways. There are folks who have nothing who are mentally well, and folks who have everything they ever wanted who are severely ill.
44. Three kids. Getting divorced. I live in my car now. Why? Because I have zero trust any job will come back. Also: I enjoy living in my car. I remain highly active building and building and building with agents. I am very up to speed. Have been getting interviews. But none of them convert. I think all the companies capable of paying my salary needs are going to be only downsizing forever. So that leaves do my own company or a startup. Neither of which cover my alimony or child support. I missed my last interview last week - I think they genuinely pulled the req, simply - not hiring the role anymore due to AI uncertainty.
I don’t know about everyone else. My approach is to cut costs to the absolute bone and live like a monk.
I have no idea what is happening to my employability. The only thing I can do is get as lean as possible. Thus - life in a van / car.
Try going to somewhere overseas within the same timezone with lower living expenses. This will be easier than living in a vehicle and more interesting and does not preclude flying back for jobs.
My older brother killed himself nearly 20 years ago at the age of 50. I don't think he ever considered himself successful. He had financial problems, alcoholism, and was lonely without any lasting relationships. When his resources were exhausted he just ended his life. There was nothing in the estate of value since his assets, such as they were, were less than tax liability he had accumulated. The owner of the house he had been renting tried to get us siblings to pay for repairs and cost of disposal, but we demurred (and told the court we'd be happy if that owner was named executor; they declined the honor.) I think his car just disappeared off the street one day, probably towed to an abandoned car lot and auctioned. At least the state recouped some of the owed taxes that way.
I'm curious to learn more, and I'm sorry for your loss. Did he always struggle with relationships? It does seems like people with good relationships (friends, family, lovers, etc.) have a much higher quality of life. Yet, for many men, it is very hard to build and maintain these.
It's interesting to see this on the HN frontpage alongside an article about how American's social activity has steeply declined over the last 30 years [1]. To me these are very much related. We have less and less community than ever.
Then, at the same time, other aspects of our lives -- family raising and career -- are trickier than ever. Family raising these days takes more time than ever [2] (which admittedly is good and bad). Career growth in the era of stagnant wages has been tough for many fields of work, and AI threatens many of the remaining ones.
It's hard to feel fulfilled these days: our social lives are poor, and we're constantly busy doing things that don't necessarily help us get ahead.
A lot of folks here have written a lot of raw and vulnerable things here. I read a lot of pain, uncertainty, and fear. Just know this. In no uncertain terms.. You are all needed and worthy. We all are. I know the struggles. I'm in a seemingly neverending thicket of mud. But I keep fighting. I will keep fighting. And so will you. If you need someone to talk to, no judgement, no neverending questions to make you justify your existence or experience. jjf at tinyarchives dot com. Stay strong. Take care of yourselves. Don't give up. Keep building. <3
I am 36 and I have been thinking about suicide a tiny bit lately. But I will share my perspective with you, hopefully to draw a picture how different circumstances can be. I live in Ukraine and my optionality in life collapsed the day the war started. I had a good life, good income and traveled a lot. I used to dream of a career in big tech and life in different countries just to give it a taste. Now I am not able to leave the country because I am a male of conscription age. My city is being attacked by drones daily, and ballistic rockets a few times a month. Witnessing your country getting wrecked with rockets and drones is hell of an experience. Businesses, electricity plants, infrastructure, gas stations becoming rubble. There is also little hope in a resolution of this soon. I have to work on a job which provides a reservation from military service if I don’t want to fight, otherwise I will be picked up on the street to join the military.
I have it so much better than a lot of my countrymen, but holy shit does this suck and it is not getting better anytime soon. The hopelessness gets you.
Software engineering is one of my last remaining pillars of life remaining more or less intact. At least I get to write some code and make computers do things.
I hope more than anything Ukrainians will stay strong and persevere. Perhaps not even for themselves or their country, but just to witness the enemy collapse when it all ends. The mere fact that you are Ukrainian and live in Ukraine invokes a certain level of respect.
> Perhaps not even for themselves or their country, but just to witness the enemy collapse when it all ends.
I hope more than anything that Ukraine (and Russia, and Israel, and Palestine, and all the war-torn regions of the world) can one day be free of this ghoulish mindset, that world leaders will choose life instead of worshipping death
It’s not ghoulish but it also perpuates a never ending cycle unfortunately- we as in each culture, man, woman are all wronged in so many ways and most have legitimate grievances and are skilled in restarting and kindling those grievances with the next batch of children..ironically religion and nationalism kindles that even further while also providing a base identity to create fellowship between its adherents
But is the only way out further death and destruction?
Fighting back to protect yourself is one thing, but exacting revenge leads to a cycle of violence. Especially when it is on an entire nationality or ethnicity.
Honestly, who are you talking to and what are you reading? Most Ukrainians I've met, my parents, their friends, refugees we've met: just want the Russians to go home.
on a serious note, it really is. death/execution as a punishment makes no sense. there are fates worse than death for those whose offenses we'd love to spill the blood for. Alcatraz is one such place where those fates are served.
and for crimes that are not enough to execute for, bog-standard prisons are enough. they are imperfect, but those willing to change prove themselves there, and a good one should give enough opportunities for a criminal to re-educate, reconsider some of their life choices, and rehabilitate.
We're not talking a finished crime where "peaceful" punishment is an option. It is an ongoing war, missiles destroy cities and lives. When someone is doing that to you, killing them is usually the only way to stop it. Surrendering is not an option, see Bucha.
agree. yet, most of the time, most people have enforcement infra, and having an intent to kill, and not resisting it, is ghoulish. that way, one is perpetuating the very cycle that Europe attempted to stop within itself through coal and steel
You're probably was lucky to be born in war-free region, so it is easy to
label things as ghoulish from a position of morally concerned outsider. You was never forced
to leave your homeland and become a refugee, you was not separated from your loved ones
by the border of warring countries, your friends and loved ones were not killed or imprisoned
by invading nazi army.
And it's a good thing for yourself, but you are not in a suitable position to judge Ukrainians or Syrians
or other peoples who have been through it.
Yes, I am lucky enough to not have experienced mass violence, and also I don't wish it on anyone else. I empathize (though I do not agree) with people who have experienced it, have had their souls worn down by the evil done to them, and who adopt these sorts of attitudes because of that. But there are also people who have had lives just as easy as mine, and yet, from their place of safety and comfort, they egg on war, and cheer when others get killed. I have nothing but contempt for this last group
I lived close to Donetsk until 2022 and I totally support the "ghoulish" label. we GOTTA find the way to stop this cycle of violence and unify around something. so far, practical everyday matters such as coal and steel, or silicon, have been pretty successful at keeping another world war at bay.
Interesting! I am from Donetsk myself, but left in 2014. I am pretty much united with my Russian friends on the topic of destroying putin's regime. Not sure if any other unity makes sense now.
putin has objectively caused a lot of harm, and desire for carnage is understandable, yet if we are to break this cycle, we should make the format of Nuremberg trials the new norm and make it so that even if we want to, we can't start a new war. unity around hatred is fleeting, temporary, and often leads to overcorrection, such as me being harassed for talking to my mother in Russian (I also fluently speak in Ukrainian and tell them go fuck themselves using all the regional swears I collected all over Ukraine) or Israeli having to apologize themselves for Netanyahu's decisions.
and everyday matters? they are boring and important, and if someone dares to touch the supply chain, they should face all the economic repercussions imaginable. ideally, this will make punishment for war immediate, inherent, and structural. and if we take it further into pony land, we may deprecate the military because its purpose will be carried by Brenda sitting behind a desk with Excel (or LibreOffice Calc) before her. :)
This consistent oversimplification and allergy to reading actual history and being an informed citizen is what ensures these types of wars will continue
But Europe isn’t really supporting Ukraine, they’re just providing enough supplies to keep them in the fight. No state seems willing to provide enough assistance to allow for Ukrainian victory, because of the costs and risks associated with that aid. Even countries at little risk of reprisal from Russia are reluctant to do much at all.
As such, all of us doing nothing more than “voicing support” on the internet and some far-away rally, should offer our empathy, and not presume to tell them how much we’re “helping”.
None of the European countries are doing much relative to their economies. Russia's GDP is about the same as Italy's. The rest of the EU and NATO countries together have an economy that is enormously larger than Russia's. So why do they allow Russia to push them around?
Ya, that's basically nothing. None of those European countries have asked their citizens to sacrifice. The welfare state continues uninterrupted. They were still buying Russian fossil fuels instead of telling people to put on a sweater.
As a US citizen I think that our country should also do more to assist Ukraine. But fundamentally this is a European problem. They need to find a solution instead of expecting the US to bail them out again.
If 3% of GDP is basically nothing (US defense budget or Medicare), then why isn’t the expectation that the US puts in “basically nothing” (3%) as a token gesture towards its promise to guarantee their sovereignty?
Again, I think the US should do more but it's really not our problem. We never guaranteed Ukraine's sovereignty. If you're referring to the Budapest Memorandum, it contains no such promise.
The other states under the US nuclear umbrella find no comfort in the legalesing the difference between "a guarantee" and "an assurance."
If we want nuclear proliferation, breaking our promises is the way to do it.
The idea that a marauding steppe warlord succeeding in Ukraine and taking control of by far the most advanced and experienced near-peer military on the planet, with aspirations to advance further into Europe, is "not our problem" is laughable.
"Nuclear umbrella" is not a well-defined term. It is the set of promises the US made to non-nuclear states. It made a set of guarantees to some set of nations (e.g. NATO++), and a set of assurances to other states, like Ukraine.
Our reneging on our assurances indicates weakness in our guarantees, which risks a proliferation spiral.
For example, NATO's Article 5 can be legalesed the same exact way you're trying to legalese the Budapest Memorandum.
Budapest Memorandum:
> The Russian Federation, the United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland, and The United States of America reaffirm their commitment to seek immediate United Nations Security Council action to provide assistance to Ukraine, as a non-nuclear-weapon state party to the Treaty on the Non-Proliferation of Nuclear Weapons, if Ukraine should become a victim of an act of aggression or an object of a threat of aggression in which nuclear weapons are used.
NATO Article 5:
> The Parties agree that an armed attack against one or more of them in Europe or North America shall be considered an attack against them all and consequently they agree that, if such an armed attack occurs, each of them, in exercise of the right of individual or collective self-defence recognised by Article 51 of the Charter of the United Nations, will assist the Party or Parties so attacked by taking forthwith, individually and in concert with the other Parties, such action as it deems necessary, including the use of armed force, to restore and maintain the security of the North Atlantic area.
Both agreements promise assistance. Do you think the US's view that your position of "not our problem" qualifies as assistance under the Budapest memorandum, but that somehow "not our problem" would not qualify as assistance under Article 5?
What a weird non sequitur. Unlike the North Atlantic Treaty which established NATO, the Budapest Memorandum of 1994 was explicitly not a mutual defense treaty (or even a treaty at all). It merely required the USA to bring violations to the UN Security Council, which we did in 2022. Promises made, promises kept.
But again, in a legalistic sense, even NATO Article 5 also doesn't obligate the US to do anything.
No document (Budapest memoranda or NATO treaty) can require the US to do anything, so all that matters is whether the US is signaling itself as a country that defends its partners.
If you believe that Article 5 obligates the US to do anything more than what we've done so far in Ukraine, please explain why.
If you don't believe that Article 5 does that, then I'm not sure why you seem dismissive of the idea that we're creating conditions for a nuclear proliferation spiral.
If you don't understand the basics of how NATO operates then I really can't help you. All of the signatories clearly understand that it's a mutual defense treaty, requiring more than just diplomatic or economic assistance. Which is why the US threatened to withdraw from the treaty after repeated failures of many other members to meet their defense spending targets while freeloading on US security guarantees. If the US government didn't believe that the North Atlantic Treaty obligated us to do anything then they wouldn't have bothered to threaten to withdraw in the first place.
You should go listen to some international law experts talk about it. No, Article 5 does not obligate the US to more than "assistance." We can send them a dollar and call it done.
"All of the signatories clearly understand..." just like all of the signatories of Budapest understood that it meant that each side would prevent each other side from invading Ukraine.
Good luck getting anyone else to give up their nukes, now that the world has seen what the US is made of. We, yourself included, are less safe because of Trump's treachery.
The Trump administration has made numerous foreign policy errors but when it comes to nuclear proliferation there is plenty of blame to go around. The Budapest Memorandum was signed under the Clinton administration, and it specifically didn't require the USA to defend Ukraine. Russia first invaded Ukraine in 2014 and the Obama administration didn't do much about it (and other EU/NATO countries also did effectively nothing). Russia then re-invaded Ukraine in 2022 and the Biden administration provided a little support but still the Ukrainians were largely left to fend for themselves. I'd like to see the Trump administration do more (short of direct military involvement) but still this is primarily a European issue. Why have the other European countries been so lazy and passive instead of asking their citizens to accept the risks and sacrifices necessary to defeat Russian aggression?
We'll probably see more nuclear proliferation going forward, regardless of who sits in the White House. No way to stop it now.
Can you avoid conscription by volunteering your SW engineering talents for the defense sector? That was an option in many 20th-century wars but I don't know if it's relevant these days.
As an American, I'd like to say I'm as horrified by our faithless leadership as you are frightened by the circumstances you're facing, but that just sounds pointlessly shallow. All of Western civilization has a stake in keeping Putin at bay, but only your country is being forced to confront that fact right now. We should feel grateful to Ukraine, and in fact many of us do.
Suffice it to say we aren't all aligned with Musk and Trump, and many of us fervently wish we could do more to help in a meaningful capacity. Trouble is, about a third of our eligible voters have decided to put a single party decisively in charge of all of our branches of government, and the way our system is structured, that leaves the rest of us more or less powerless. That will hopefully change soon, but we'll see. Try to stay strong, and we will try as well.
And still I had never heard of "AI engineer". I learned AI as part of CS, back when it wasn't quite "intelligence" and we didn't call prompting "engineering".
Whatever I'm about to say may sound hollow, given that I've not been in your shoes.
At my previous (well known tech) company, we had a number of older Romanians who grew up in the Communist era. I became close with one of them. And the stories he told me were just harrowing. They were not at war, but the government simply couldn't provide for the people (other than giving them a good education). The struggle for basic necessities in the 80's became real. He had a wife and a newborn, and the wife was sick, and they couldn't afford any furniture. There was real concern the baby would die because the mother couldn't get even basic rest (no mattress, no bed, sleeping on concrete floor, etc).
The stuff he had to do to ensure she got a bed was crazy.
And then later there were food shortages, etc. Dodging bullets, etc.
But they all somehow persevered and focused on surviving. And then got out of the country as soon as the borders opened up. Eventually, because of their skills, they got great jobs. Very senior and well respected in the company.
But of course, they know people who did lose hope and ultimately committed suicide.
Living in the US, I've encountered lots of former refugees from war zones. People like yourself with skills did well here. For sure they struggled, but eventually they all "made it".
If you have skills, I hope you can last long enough to get there too.
18. same ass of a country (to outsiders, have a look at all the countless debacles concerning corruption to understand why "ass"), except that I have 7 mostly worry-free years left to live and the market for juniors (and thus, me) is closed. if I get drafted, I'm waiting out for an opportunity to shoot my head.
honestly, having a decently paying blue-collar job made me think whether tech is worth it at all, given that I'll lose all the extra benefits (from canteen to proper bomb shelter to gym to commute) and cut my already tight paycheck by 20-25%. for what? for "tech"? where I have to be able to wake up at 3AM when the client's LLM took down their prod, commute to a vulnerable office in Kyiv (and pay for expensive AND equally vulnerable housing there), live under a threat of getting fired because I was "not AI enough" or whatever management wants, or because I don't have gigabit Wi-Fi in the shelter? fuck it, I'll rather be a night-shift loader and idk, learn embedded at home.
the world devolving into proompting has ruined tech for me. prolly I'll get a Cat. C driver's license and spend little what I have remaining of life on the road. if I get lucky, I may eventually reach CE and Euro 95 certs, and that in turn gives me some sort of safety against mobilization.
if the war ends before I become 25, I'll likely end up a stereotypical himbo truck driver. I'm tired of having to perform the smartness.
You have my sympathy. I can't offer you any advice, but I was just thinking earlier about how awful I feel for younger people working in this industry, and that didn't even include being Ukrainian.
Thank you, and one in the above comment, for sharing this. I feel comments like these need to be seen more frequently by people not in your situation. Hard claim I can even imagine what it feels like.
> surrender to the other side (Russia I believe?) and spend 1-2 years [...] citizenship proceedings [...]
I almost read it as an insult, but I'll assume that you either forgot or didn't know one peculiar fact: Russian army almost never keeps their POWs alive, and even if it does, it absolutely never lets them out of the army into Russia - only back into Ukraine, through the battlefield.
this would be a valid option if I was a Russian who does not want to fight Ukraine, sure. Ukraine is ± alright with Russian POWs, partly because we have Europe watching over our shoulders. the reasoning behind your idea is sound, assuming that both sides wage an honest and Geneva-accurate war, except that Russia prefers to utilize the Genevan convention as a piece of toilet paper.
so, your idea effectively becomes suicidal, but you also get a great deal of suffering. why not cut the suffering while I can?
You can actually make donations for various causes including sending batches of drones for the Ukrainian on the frontline. Look up Jake Broe for example, he does organize such campaigns.
I'm extremely sorry to hear about your life and honestly I don't want to be someone who is provides faux comfort saying everything will be alright. However, I am trying to imagine myself in your shoes and if it ever came to a point where I thought it my life is better off taken out, I would be willing to explore my absolute last options, no matter how miniscule the probability may be. Maybe some variant of high-risk emmigration? Maybe there's a waterway or a boat route or underground passage or forest or something.If I was anyway planning to take my life away without giving these extremely low probability options a chance, might as well go down with a fight. Probably this is naive, but that's only because I have personally never been in such a situation ever to even be able to provide a decent enough advice. I am completely baffled and very sorry you are going through this. You're not the first one to share this experience and probably won't be the last and at times like this it irritates me the feminist organizations all over the world have been dead silent on this matter. Equality only when it benefits them, I guess. I wish you good luck and hopefully get to meet you in person to learn of your amazing story of survival.
If you're going to kill yourself anyway, why not just acquiesce? (To Russia.) This question may be stupid depending on the reader but I'm asking sincerely.
Not OP, but i've seen footage from that war, and sometimes you can't decide how to go out. I've seen someone grasping for air like 30 minutes, while their face is half blown out. A death is a mercy on them.
Necessity is the mother of invention and I can only imagine the volume of necessity that your environment demands. If fighting is not an option, can you use your skills to make some lemonade out of a giant bowl of lemons?
It's the only sane comment because nobody else seems to face the 'Elephant in the Room', obviously that the situation is existential for everyone, the nation is under assault and that his contemporaries are fighting an invader.
It's distasteful for people to wallow in the lost hope of their own self-serving concerns and complain about their personal 'career trifles' when their community is facing violence and annihilation.
Acting in the service of others, standing up for one's own dignity is the most deeply fulfilling and transformative actions one could ever take.
Many of my own family members volunteered to help Europe - literally across generations - then and even now.
The best thing that person can do is stop wallowing in self pity and take action, for others and also themselves.
There are a thousand ways for someone to engaging in helping.
Did you consider voluteering with the Ukraine Army to be a drone pilot? There are many jobs that are far from the zero line, so very little risk of death/injury. Also, from everything that I read, most people cherish the friendships they build during time of war. There are few things that bring together men fighting a common enemy.
It is sad to see so many smart, inquisitive and dedicated people who come to this site feel this way. I suspect a lot of it may be because of how dedicated and passionate people are about their work and their skill and it's getting harder to make a living with it or feel like they are being valued for it.
I strongly encourage everyone to try keeping a gratitude journal - just write three positive things that happened to you today.it can really change the way you look at your life.
A lot of the suicidal ideation has to do with lack of agency and control over your situation in life. I am a firm believer that you need to take a step back and look at the possibilities in your life. You are not just a SWE/whatever your job is - you are a problem solver, someone with curiosity, someone dedicated someone who is playing other roles in life than just an employee - a friend, a parent, neighbour, child etc
If you feel like you have no control over the path you are in - change the path, don't stop the walk. You can move to a different career, different country, different partner. Sure some of our circumstances cannot be changed - but don't make the arbitrary standard of life you set for yourself determine whether your life is worth living.
> You are not just a SWE/whatever your job is - you are a problem solver
You should know by now that many of us joined the profession because we like programming and not "problem solving". In 23 years of career I've never cared much about any business problem of the companies I was working for. I never cared about solving customers' problems, or the "impact" of my work, only about the technical beauty of it.
Yes of course - but I suspect you are still solving the technical problems within what you do? The beauty is the elegance of the solution,the optimisation,the way it works. All of these things are problems worth solving. This might be your favourite thing - but it's not the only thing you can solve? What about the second favourite thing?
There are always opportunities to explore an alternative - in a different area, in a different country. Many options to consider before concluding there are none.
> The beauty is the elegance of the solution,the optimisation,the way it works. All of these things are problems worth solving.
Yes, but LLMs, and especially their mandatory and exclusive use, make that impossible.
> This might be your favourite thing - but it's not the only thing you can solve? What about the second favourite thing?
There is no second favorite thing.
> There are always opportunities to explore an alternative - in a different area, in a different country. Many options to consider before concluding there are none.
I'm already in country number 9 since leaving Italy. We'll see.
I really empathise with the voices in here. Remember you are not alone.
But also remember that building a life, even for the most successful people, is like building a castle on sand. Existentially everything crumbles with time, our brains, bodies, income, status.
When we hold onto ideas of how things should be, we suffer, because we live in a reality of flux, and that flux seems to be increasing over time. We are moving towards great volatility and we are all apart of it.
In times like these people need a philosophy - I believe in something akin to Buddhism, because it’s taught me the more we cling, the more we suffer.
I implore everybody to do that soul searching and realise that we can always find something else, and something better, if we adjust our expectations and attachments of how we think it should be.
This is the greatest change of our time, and the outcomes are not a reflection of your performance.
If anyone is interested, checkout Ram Dass, some great YouTube videos and podcasts that can really help get a sense of life
Before everyone jumps in with their favorite ad-hoc reason, take a look at the graph first. The headline is technically true, but barely. For the 45-64 age group, the suicide rate is barely different than it was in 2012 and 2018, and about the same as it was in 1985 (24 vs 22-23 per 100k.) Seems like all age groups have held steady (10-24 25-44 and 75+) or trended up a bit (45-64 and 64-75) since the early 2000's, after dipping from the 1980s.
The graph shows that suicides overall are down from 30 years ago, while the same cohort that was higher in 1985-2005 (25-44) is now higher in 2005-2025 (45-64). Perhaps there is something about the generation more than the situation or the age of the individual.
The childhood lead exposure generation (not being flippant; it may also be why we engaged in the worst crime spree in history as teens and young adults).
I am not much of a gamer and sure as hell don't keep up with many people that I gamed with 20 years ago but there was one guy that I would talk with ever few years. I talked with him and a few months later he was gone. I don't know why his suicide hit me so hard. Maybe because I connect him to a different phase of my life. Maybe because he was the guy who was the life of chat. I don't know.
What I do know is that I wish he could have known how many people would miss him.
Makes a lot of sense to me. If you're young and things aren't going so well then at least you can have hope that you'll be able to turn it around. You have time on your side. That all goes away when you start to get to middle age. You're locked in by your earlier choices.
Now I'm here staring at AI with the reality that if it makes my skills irrelevant I'll have no fallback, and I'll be at an age where reskilling is extremely hard and I'm still nowhere close to retiring.
The top comment here recommends Emile Durkheim's Suicide book, which is a very good recommendation.
I want to recommend another one, specifically about male depression, called I Don't Want to Talk About It by Terrence Real [1].
It's known that more men than women commit suicide, although more women are diagnosed with depression. The book argues that it's because male depression is often not overt, but it's nevertheless there.
Men often end up being enclosed in their bubble, trying to fix things on their own, not willing or not knowing how to connect with others. But this connection is so important, because humans are a social species.
Weird nobody’s mentioning “self-made man” by nora vincent, written after experiencing a whole year living as a man. That experience gave her such a depression she ended up taking her own life.
It's really helpful to read this thread. There's a limit to how much I'll share but one thing that might ring true for others is how sort of crazy I feel because the forces people on this forum are talking about are hitting the world very unevenly.
I like my therapist quite a bit but respectfully he has no concept of how AI is impacting huge swaths of white collar work. To people who haven't experienced the 2 year delta in what a coding job looks like, you can sort of sound like a nut. Or they won't appreciate the magnitude of it. Especially if they're not plugged into the news.
I frequently look around and ask "is this really happening?" - I think it is happening, as convenient as it might be if it weren't.
Whole IT ethos for decades was about inflicting the rapid change to everyone else without empathy for recognizing the personal costs. "Lol, look how many clueless losers our clunky hated enterprise systems had eliminated, and how much did that save the shareholders. Those guys deserve it for not spending time with latest tech and not seeing what's coming."
Now that we are starting to recognize we had been bootloaders of our demise, how does our own medicine taste to us?
The core of this issue is that under capitalism, automation results in disempowerment and wealth concentration instead of collective benefit from improved efficiency.
Even AI - at least until some undefined singularity point - would have been an enormous boon for the world if it wasn't all but guaranteed that it will be used to disempower those less capable of affording and employing it at an industrial scale.
I am not suicidal and I am lucky to have loving people who I also love around. That said, with all the rapid changes in the software engineering industry and in life in general, I sometimes wonder what I am doing with my life and why.
It's like plenty of things are happening by inertia, but none of them bring any joy or make lots of sense. In such moments, I really envy people who have the courage to work on something they truly believe in. I have quite a few people to take care of, which requires financial resources, so I am not there yet.
In my circle, I've objectively had both the best and the worst life. I can tell when people are thinking about suicide because they reach out to find out if I've done myself in yet lol.
For them, I keep going. I think because both the best and worst times in my life were roughly due to my own decisions, I always have the idea that I will get back to the good times.
I'm 40 years old and taking care of both of my parents. One with cancer the other half side paralyzed after stroke. I also have thoughts like this mostly because of the current situation but also because it's hard to imagine what would be my purpose in this world if they are gone (I just hope they go before me)
Things that work for depression: writing, composing music, exercise, playing video games. Things that don't help: alcohol nor drugs. Role of family and community: YMMV. I envy lots of folks with supportive and kind families, but I also witnessed much suffering and terrible loss caused by a loving family that doesn't quite get the loving part right.
With that out of the way, I'll say that for as long as suicide mortality is well below cancer mortality, society doesn't really have a suicide problem.
1. fun and creative things do not strictly help everyone facing depression. Anhedonia will likely strip that enjoyment from you. Maybe they help with colloquial depressions, but the article discusses people facing practical, systemic issues that emotional regulation doesn’t solve and if anything likely makes hobbies feel like they being unproductive against a tide rising around them. Many hobbies also have barriers to entry
2. drugs may help. both in the traditional medicinal sense and recreational sense (given psilocybin is showing great results and is not widely available medicinally)
3. By your logic there is no cancer problem till the heart disease problem is solved (which is well above cancer). And widespread suffering of individuals should be ignored and belittled.
> By your logic there is no cancer problem till the heart disease problem is solved (which is well above cancer)
That's one of those things that causes me depression and anxiety: in many places cancer is actually above heart disease. From my vantage, that's a bad thing because people that die from sudden heart disease or from the sudden disintegration of their brains as the bullet from their gun travels through it get a better deal than those who die from cancer.
Suicide is sometimes a good solution to a problem (cancer) with no other solution. Make no mistake, I think that people should live forever even if we have to boil the oceans to get there; yes, I'm that kind of monster. But I'm not the kind that says that people should die in horrible agony just because of the stigma that doing otherwise imply.
I think part of the problem in that instance, might be "success" being necessary but not sufficient for "surviving and thriving"; and unfortunately sometimes that isn't explained along the way to even people who become conventionally successful (but, perhaps we can try to improve an awareness of the issue going forward for future gens)
I see this a lot speaking to friends and just in general online discourse. Too much news and social media. Perhaps it will all go to shit. AI is definitely changing the entire world, our industry being the first on the chopping block (maybe).
But, what can you do. There's always been injustice in the world. You just never used to hear about it 24/7/365.
Now you wake up and read about it on the little screen, later you see it on the big screen, talk about it at work, then go to bed and read about it on the little screen again. I have friends who can't even talk to me for 30 minutes without just bringing the entire mood down with doomerism.
Idk, I just do sports, work and spend time with whoever I can in whatever little free time I have left over. I had to forcibly block every news site and social media via an app otherwise I'd get addicted again and become a cynic. Reddit is by far the worst for me, insta is 2nd.
Unlike 95% of people I speak to I actually love my life and enjoy my work, and just hope that AI doesn't steal that from me.
Growing up as a first generation immigrant in a country with some of the worst inequality in the world taught me to just ignore everything but what you need to do.
This is something I sometimes feel guilty about now that I have a comfortable life. But, I feel like trading that ignorance for constant awareness just leads to anxiety and guilt and is a poor trade I don't have to make.
Edit: also this is just 1 factor. There are other factors like actual poverty, loneliness etc. I don't meant to put forth the idea that it's purely the 24 hour news cycle and social media that's to blame, just 1 aspect I see most often in my life.
After having failed romantically one too many times and having an average dev job AI will probably take from me, that won't allow me to FIRE for 6 more years even if I can keep it, life's not fun for me at 35 already, how will it be at 55, all wrinkled up, frail, probably cancer stricken and with no future potential left?
Seriously,look at the age at which people run for president. We got a guy whose been living his best life by stealing from the US public in his late 70s. 50 is the new 30 after all
Less than 10% of 55 year old men have ever had cancer in their life. And many of them were diagnosed before 35. So if you don't already have cancer, your odds are much less than 10% that you'll have cancer by 55.
And if you're wrinkled and frail at 55 years old then that's your own fault. Put on some sunscreen and go for a bike ride.
You're talking about FIRE and at the same time griping. Everyone has their own disappointment to deal with in life, but you might consider yourself privileged if you're able to retire at all, let alone retire early in your 40s.
I was in a similar position as a highly successful programmer after the dotcom crash in the early 2000's. Like George Bailey in "It's a wonderful life" I stood on the bridge looking down.
I had $300,000 in the bank. The thought occurred to me "What kind of idiot kills himself with that much money in the bank? Thus I started adventuring around the country looking for something to do.
I ended up driving a city bus in Las Vegas, mostly the double decker bus on The Strip. It was the most fun I ever had on a job. No regrets.
There is a study about the happiness curve that also talks about this, about in most countries happiness does decline in middle age but begins to recover around after 50 years old :-p.
Man this is for real. I’m 46 and I tell my therapist and my friends that I’m not suicidal but like… can we wrap this shit up already? (A tasteless joke stolen from Tom Segura)
I have been meditating on WHY I feel this way. On paper things are pretty good. I’m married. I have a job that is safe for now. I have kids. Two dogs. A house. Two cars.
But I feel really lonely and unseen and like I am a disappointment to everybody including myself. Like it makes sense I’m unseen because I’m unexceptional.
So I’ve done some things that have helped a little including scheduling lunches with friends and coworkers, more frequent date nights (especially double date nights), working out (setting and achieving even small pointless goals like mile time, distance, weight lifted, etc really helps).
All of that and it feels like I’m bailing water out of a sinking ship. It is barely enough to stay afloat and heaven help me if I skip a day or make a mistake…
It is hard to imagine doing this for another 30 years…
I used to think Soma was one of the more disturbing ideas in Brave New World. These days, I understand the temptation a little better.
It can be scary and hard to approach, but I would think you're not unexceptional or unimportant to your loved ones. Maybe you should talk to your wife about this at some point? It sounds like you're starting on this with date nights too which does seem good.
I hope you can find something that helps you feel like you're not just treading water, though.
Yeah, or that it is easier to identify the slog with the hindsight of middle age?
I'm not a Buddhist, but because of the stressors of my previous career I sometimes joke that I accidentally recreated the fundamental tenets of Buddhism in order to not wash out. One of the things I've come to realize is that the slog feeling you describe is something like the concept of 'samsara' or "cycle of aimless drifting, wandering or mundane existence" per the smarter people that edited the Wikipedia article. But that it's still possible to find meaning and satisfaction within this paradigm.
It’s so apt that you mention it life feeling sisyphean. I was just feeling that way while walking the dogs yesterday.
Maybe another tool would be to try to mix it up more… so each day feels different.
Especially at work where we have always been busy but lately there is no break, no time for modernization or learning or technical debt, we just move from one epic to the next epic, no fanfare, no launch parties. Just each of us at home working alone.
As I’ve reached middle age I’ve realized that controlling my suffering keeps me grounded.
The suffering will come out no matter what everyday for me personally no matter how comfortable the day is.
For years now I force it out with intention every day. I push to a discomfort for an hour or more a day usually doing some aerobic activity.
When my body starts failing as I get older I’ll need to explore other options but this is where I am now.
Surprisingly my brain has been rewired over the years to look forward to this controlled suffering and counterintuitively it’s made all of life much more enjoyable.
I don't claim to have all the answers, I still feel that way sometimes, but I've mostly escaped it. What really helped was a lot of Dr. K (Healthy Gamer) videos and introspection. I think I can sum up in a few bullet points what really worked for me, although it was actually a years-long process to go through.
1. Recognizing just how many of my goals and beliefs were "unnatural," in the sense that they never really originated from within me. I never in my whole life cared about money or status, but I had internalized the message that I needed to stand out (which I actually hate to do), have some glorious career, etc etc. It was completely useless pressure because I was running as hard as I could in the completely wrong direction. When I actually pay attention to what I enjoy, it's a very short list: laughing with my wife, tackling small but meaningful challenges (I'm a physically awkward guy but I've felt proud learning some basic home repair skills), reading books, beer, and conversation. That's basically it. So now I make time for those things and tune out the noise of what I'm supposed to want.
2. I treat my job as a source of money and a place to potentially form relationships. I also consider it an opportunity to exercise craft and quality, but I recognize that's not the main reason I'm there—it's not why I was hired and it's not (solely) why I took the job. Giving work a smaller (but still meaningful!) place in my life solved a lot of emotional problems.
3. Recognizing that "permanent happiness" is not a very realistic goal for human beings, and it's easy to make yourself miserable trying to be happy. I referenced this in another HN comment, but I really like the book "The Happiness Trap." It essentially helps you stop trying to run so hard from feeling negative emotions, and being ok with having negative experiences and feelings reduces so much stress.
4. The last one was "productivity," which manifested in many insidious ways. The first was turning all of my free time into a resource for self-improvement. I actually enjoyed this earlier in life when I was building a skill that I found interesting, but it became my goal to just get "better," and that was more useless pressure. I also tried to fit in an impossible amount of tasks, and to come up with systems to manage it all. Accepting my own limitations and the fact that there will always be more than it is possible to do really helped take another big category of stress away. "Four Thousand Weeks" is a great book.
All of this is not to say it's easy, or that I'm 100% fine all the time now. I still get depressed, overwhelmed and so on at times. But overall my quality of life is way up, I enjoy my days a lot of the time, I can function, I feel my life moving in a good direction. Mostly it was a journey of subtraction rather than addition. For a long time I didn't realize how many things I could just put down.
This is me. I was in a leadership role at a large institution and made the mistake of joining a promising startup (great partners, good funding).
In 2021, the company went down, and since then I have been rejected for everything. And by everything, I literally mean every possible way to get money in. I have only been scraping the leftovers at the bottom. Recently, I joined an outsourcing company to do digital transformation work (I have deep AI experience). It's shocking to see people getting hired with 0-1 interviews who then prove to be incompetent just because they are the right caste.
I had a friend who transitioned and it was such a delight to witness the transformion. Before they were the most flaky of friends, always flitting from on thing to the next, not stable, couldn't hold a job or hobby together for very long. Then they finally transitioned and my god the difference was night and say. They're stable now, they're reliable they're just fun to be around. They've finished a second degree and have held the same job for eight years now.
It's crazy how much not being at home in their body disrupted every part of their life
I am 43 and only in the last few years have things turned better. I want to say that life is tough for different people from different parts of the world. For various reasons. But overall we have a set of systems that do not care.
The lack of friendship, care, love cannot be eased with money. I used to be crazy about startups. I used to want to live in New York (I am from Kolkata). I had a great run in my twenties but I crashed many years ago. Living in Germany helped a lot. I realized I was not loved or cared for. By myself mostly.
My parents love me but my dad has mental health issues which took a really bad toll on my childhood and teen years. I swept away the need for a love and care and replaced it with money. Many of us are doing this. The system needs most of us to slave. Now, I have been living the village life for about 6 years. I moved my parents as well. We have farms. I still write software, well, mostly generate them with LLMs.
There is a sense of purpose here that I started to feel. Over these last years, I have become more calm than I ever was. Happier, in a way I notice, every day. With less money than I ever had. Life is not about lots of achievements. We need meaning, love, purpose, care, friendships. We need slows walks, flowing water, walk in the rain, healthy food with zero labels. We need to grow our crops, care for animals, raise kids as a village.
I know I am typing this on a computer. But I no longer work for any tech company. I have a small consultancy client. I live as per a typical countryside routine. Most of my (whatever little savings) money is now invested in our farms where I work a few hours everyday, on time. Animals, dirt, mud, poop, crops, cleaning. All of it. Connected to how life is supposed to be. I used to hate glass buildings, still do.
Concrete, glass and everything about artificial spaces makes me sick. I am just one person, I do not have some research paper. But I know how I feel today vs a decade ago. Hope it helps.
amen to that. I took up cheesemaking as a hobby, which has led me to making contacts with farmers. I desperately want to dump everything and go all in on it. Just using my hands every day doing things with objects not made from silicon.
Kinda funny how I used to make fun of the Amish. Now I realize their lifestyle is closer to what I want than ever (barring the religious stuff I mean)
Very similar boat. In my twenties I used to look down on working with hands - like carpenter, farmer, plumber. Now, I want to only do this. I switch between farm and desk work all day.
I started bake a couple years back but I am just not consistent. Need to get to that, would love to have fresh bread in the morning since we don't have that in any village nearby.
Battle it by working, meaningful work -- help others, no matter how small your actions may be, one step at a time...one day at a time.
Just keep moving forward :)
Life is beatiful
35 yrs old. Lost my job in 2024. Did a brief stint for a much less pay then quit. Now, unemployed for about a year and a half now.
Thinking of building a career in marketing in some form ( writing or video editing). I have a substack. Started a Youtube channel also. But, still clueless about how to do anything right now.
The money that was meant to be my kid's college fund and my retirement fund is helping me survive right now.
I don't know what can I say to make you feel better but I will pray for you to find a job and have strength to get over this... Sending hugs from Timișoara, Romania.
I am in my late 40's and I am struggling more than I ever have in my entire life. I have a great marriage and 3 children and I have a good job with good income. I have nothing to be unhappy about.
And yet my children are grown now and mostly gone. I feel a profound sense of loss.
I feel like I'm entering the age where I'm a prime candidate for any myriad of diseases and I get so anxious every time I get a symptom. I go to the Dr. a lot. I went to the ER twice every year in the past 3 years. Ironically, its occurred to me that if I do have something terminal, I don't have to go on like this. And I like the thought of that. I'm both terrified of death and also really looking forward to it.
I used to enjoy my work, but AI has made it so that I just kind of show up and ask it for things. Anyone could do what I do. There's no sense of accomplishment in anything.
The worst thing about this is that I have every reason to be the happiest person here. So the fact that I feel the way that I do actually makes me a pretty bad person and that makes the whole thing feel a whole lot worse.
I am admittedly in a bit of a doom loop. I wake up, isolate in my office and then I want to just isolate all the time. This room makes me miserable and is also the only place I feel comfortable.
I try to exercise every day. I invest in spirituality and faith every day. I try to meditate and read and stay off my phone. Most days I don't do a very good job of any of it.
If you are remote, I recommend taking all the time you save with AI and watching random highly-rated video essays on youtube. :-) It's sounds like I'm kidding, but continually learning and engaging with education and criticism has kept my brain working in ways that make me happy. Getting into a new art form (I've been buying a lot of manga recently) and learning about it is exciting.
My father was the first man in our family to live past 50. Maybe we’re overthinking it. And by it, I mean everything. Despair is the price one pays for setting oneself an impossible aim. The fact that I can wallow in self-pity of a comforting echo chamber in a swipe and a click and 0 emotional effort compared say, calling my mom; we have been aggressively primed and modified in our behaviors for the last 20 years and people are really wondering why people are committing suicide?
The only people afraid to put AI in charge are the ones who have invested interest in keeping you sad, lonely, and afraid.
Late 40s here, on antidepressants for the anxiety side more than depression.
I can totally see why this is highest in my demographic.
An underlying cause is quiet desperation, there are elements of failure in ones' own life, perhaps pressure caused deliberately by others as they step on you to get to the top. Perhaps it's the fact you start to notice death, your parents, family, and friends. You also see the beginning of your own aged based health decline.
Until society can support genx and older with their goals at this age, instead of telling them to get talking in men's groups, or saying it's alright to show emotions to a generation that grew up without this culture, this will probably continue.
I don't have an answer to fix it, but what I do feel would help is if was treated as a high risk stage of life without stigma. So 45+ men or menopausal women, can take time off to adjust, spend more time with family and friends, and it be treated as normal process, like a sabbatical or maternity leave or just a wind down from society like partial retirement.
This will never happen obviously because it means as a society we have to have a better welfare state and drop the ingrained idea that if you're not working you're a problem (not working is NOT the same as not contributing or benefiting to society, but people conflate this).
Perhaps the AI age will force us to fix that due to mass unemployment, the way COVID kick started remote working.
I am early fifties, and due to some sort of intrusive thoughts OCD-ish variant of ADHD, I have probably thought about suicide 25,000 times in the last ten years (not an overestimate). It is a several-times-per-day thing, if it’s not all day. Sometimes only an intrusive flicker, sometimes very much not. I have spent the last year or two dealing with burnout thinking about it regularly in depth; usually not for now, but for maybe ten years time when I believe it will be necessary.
I am a single man with no dependents who is struggling to work due to burnout, and I perceive that we are really not far off a world where young people will take seriously the idea that older people like me have had our time. I do not expect to be able to work for much longer because why would they let us keep our jobs or get new ones when we are taking away theirs? What can we teach them when we have built the tools that will destroy their livelihoods and wrecked the environment in which they live? Why should they listen to us at all?
Leaving a bit early may be the morally responsible thing for me to do. Understanding that living until I am dependent on care from the young is not going to be a good time when we are a despicable, despised generation, it’s an oddly liberating thought.
The thing is, someone that perceives these problems for young people is someone that should stick around and keep doing what they do to fix it.
You are the exact opposite of the people that need to leave early. Stick around and wait for when we come out the other side. I think these kids are going to figure it out, with our help.
We are not coming out the other side if we are not prepared to relinquish power (and wealth) to the young; can you imagine Gen X ever doing that? Look at who our “tech titans” are. Look at who we gave power to. Our most significant accomplishment is the PayPal Mafia; we funded and empowered all the worst ideas of millennials.
(Granted, millennials have to reckon with the AI CEOs being theirs, technically.)
I am 22 years old cs graduate.currently experiencing suicidal thoughts a lot of even the experienced people are having a difficult time then my situation is even more dire suicide has started to seem like a viable option !
Man... You're 22. You havent even started life yet. People are already living up to 80 years. In 1-2 generations (the 40-50s of today) will be living until 100. Your generation and later will live up to ~120 years and more. Everything will change. Your task is to survive and prosper as much as you can in the meantime.
Just got “over the hill” here. It’s…complicated, but not at all surprising on the whole.
My friends who are older are pessimistic as fuck. Several have been unemployed for lengthy stretches due to ageism in American hiring practices, which has resulted in their life crumbling around them as they lack the resources for basic upkeep anymore. I see that and shudder for myself, wondering if we’ll finally get this sorted before I hit my 50s or if this is just going to be a shitty fucking thing for the foreseeable future.
Social activity is hard for middle-aged men. We spend several hours a day commuting to and from work, which eats into our social budgets. Hard to host dinners, attend game nights, or go on dates when 80% of your day is spoken for work alone in some capacity (preparing for, getting to, performing, commuting home), which leaves us isolated. Most of our peers have paired off, so they have a stronger support structure - yet they too disappear at alarming rates.
At every conceivable intersection for the past fifty years, we’ve chosen to make life more hostile and less comfortable. I’m tired of feigning surprise at what, at least to me and my circles, is so sickeningly obvious.
This. And also commutes were radically shorter than they are today, with more commuter services in many smaller cities than exist today.
We shifted from a sole-provider/homemaker model of couples to a dual-income-required model, at the same time our choices on car dependency and suburban sprawl came back to bite us in the ass. The working from home era was great for socializing because we could agree on small group nights if we were all feeling well, knowing we didn’t have huge commutes ahead of us after work and with the extra money in our pockets from lowered work costs; RTO mandates killed that again, as did the sudden jump in real estate costs, inflation, and stagnating wages in the face of AI investment.
That’s just the average, too. For edge cases like me in unorthodox households or living arrangements, it’s even harder.
People will die because nature works this way. Of course if humans find out ways to live longer (there are experiments, biological treatments) then this world will change a lot. But well... Everyone did not exist before born - if death is similar, it probably does not matter for us humans. If there are not God, Gods and something else then our lives could be pointless. You can die tomorrow and you will not find out it. You will not know that your family members or friends (if you have) will be sad. It is hard topic but you know.
I wrote an article about youth mental health for my substack recently that touched on this. The suicide rate for the 50-59 demographic is far higher than the general population, but it collapses once you hit retirement age. If I had to guess, social supports for seniors plays a role.
I believe every death is unique and not a statistic.
However, since the article is about "men" and "suicide". There is substantial evidence that suggest women (especially young girls) attempt suicide more than men... while men are are more likely to die from a suicide [1]
Does gender have a role in suicide? Maybe. But I would hesitate to generalize too much.
[1] I asked chatgpt to back up my claims. Please correct me if I'm wrong.
My understanding is that the disparity in "successful" suicides is because women tend to choose methods that can be reversed if you catch them quickly enough (like poison), while men tend to choose violent methods that are over quickly (like self inflicted gunshots).
This article is from the UK, where firearms only account for 2.5% of completed suicides. In both the US and the UK, men are generally more likely to succeed even after accounting for their chosen method, e.g. they take larger overdoses within the same drug class:
There have been plenty of periods in history with millenarian challenges, but I don't think there has been a period in history with so many different existential threats and uncertainties happening at the same time.
Between climate change, AI, economic instability, political catastrophes, various actual and impending wars, social media bot farms and trad media content farms, and entire industries that exist to lie about what's happening and pressure everyone to work and consume and live an ideal lifestyle with ideal productive values - there's quite a lot going on.
She said: “The evidence is clear that successive governments have failed to deliver on their promise to reduce suicide rates and make suicide prevention a priority. Today must act as a wake up call. The current approach is not working; we need meaningful action and proper funding if lives are to be saved.”
I understand the urge to do something on a large scale, but immediately pivoting to "the government" to solve personal mental health crises seems like a terrible idea.
Yes, the job market, decline in socialising, wage stagnation, difficulties starting a family, house prices, greedflation, mental health healthcare provision etc are all individual failures nothing to do with any government.
My issue is that "mental health" can be any issue that makes a person suicidal. You have a tough case to make that the collective government is responsible for fixing all those issues.
Instead, focusing on policies that harm (or do not help) those factors you rightly point out sure does seem like a better way of handling it. Otherwise what, you have to choose between housing costs and mental health (when clearly housing costs contributes to mental health??).
Choosing to focus on everything is choosing to focus on nothing.
Back when we were in high school we were aiming to do the least amount of work to get through the year and spend the rest of the time hanging out with our mates.
A big part of our fault is also that we accept to get dragged by women into a territory that is not ours which is made up of large amount of introspection, extremely fine margins between good times and awful times and walking on eggshells with regards to social cues , the avoidance of social faux passes, planning years and years into the future down to the smallest detail .
That's the perfect recipe for depression for guys
We should go back to the basics and hangout with our mates trying to do the least amount of work as possible, play sports, banter with each other, take everything much less seriously and when we feel the need to have sex shoot for ONS or visit escorts or prostitutes and then go back to our mates.
Call me crazy, but I'm pretty sure from my understanding of human history and primate evolution that "long-term sexual/romantic partner" is, in fact, one of the basics.
I had an assumption that most of human history, marriage was more of an arranged marriage thing. With a lot of "women being treated as property", "heirs required for transfer of wealth", etc notation.
And there were also societies that were polyamorous in nature?
We are in a new world now, there is no need to force traditions (or worse yet, false traditions) that frankly doesn't seem to work anymore
I’m bored of how shocked people are about this. It’s been going on decades now. Think of all the great and/or famous men that have killed themselves in the last 60 years. It stacks up quick. No one cares.
I think about suicide every day. Thankfully death still scares me. If I didn’t have some of the responsibilities that I have then I probably would have drank myself to death and accidentally overdosed on pills just due to mixing both together.
I’m in the stereotypical category. I’m college educated, have a successful career doing what I enjoy, have a great house, wife and kids.
I deal with OCD, negative thoughts I can’t get control of, low self esteem, paranoia, and trust issues. It’s impossible for me to feel loved. However, I’m one of those silent sufferers and no one would be the wiser for the most part. Death feels like a sweet escape after having a few drinks. However, I’m too OCD to actually kill myself because I have too many final tasks and arrangements to finish up so that I can leave everything perfectly in order. The guilt aspect is serious too.
Middle-age is a serious thing to face. It’s a super scary time on all fronts, because if you don’t already have your shit together, then you’re completely fucked if something happens.
Hi, very similar situation as you. Diagnosed OCD, paranoia and trust issues. I also struggle with feeling loved and see myself as a burden. I also struggle with the idea that I'm only useful to produce taxes and that removing myself from the equation is the only control I have over the situation. I jokingly refer to death as "The Sweet Release". Anyway, not much point to my comment here other than relating to your situation and wanting to thank you for writing it.
This was a tough article for me. I'm only alive because I have to be. I have one family member left in poor health, and they depend on me, but when they are gone, I don't really see the point of sticking around. I am simply sticking around for them.
The last thing I will do is die alone, or worse, confined to a nursing home, abused by underpaid staff. Yes: I have tried over 15 medication's, therapy, you name it. I came to the conclusion a few years ago that accepting that my life has an end, and they I will make that decision to end it, has been comforting. I feel like it's the only, perhaps last control, I might ever have
There are numerous NDE reports that say people who commit suicide go through extreme agony after they die. It’s never an option. Tell this to anyone who thinks about this mistake and it may help him. Although he should do his own part of searching and listening to such stories to understand how big of a mistake this is.
To anyone with a degree not in software, you can pivot to a hands-on job. I'm a technician for factory equipment. AI is not replacing me for a long time.
I'm an absolute doofus in the physical realm. No hand eye coordination of any kind. No common sense. No social skills or ability to read and understand humans.
In any other era I would have been a useless drain on society and yet I happened by an incredible stroke of luck to be born at a time when the few skills I do have perfectly aligned with a career niche. It's been a good few decades. Now I just go back to being a useless nobody but at least I have my memories and my investments.
I'm staring down the barrel of this particular prospect lately. I struggled through my twenties living with family until I finally managed to get my bachelor's degree and a job with a really solid company/team/product line. That silo of the business was then sold off to private equity, and it was fine for a while, but now the owners have been ensorcelled by the song of a C-list "rock star CEO" who has no respect for the team or the product line and very definitely has no sense of where the inertia lies when he keeps jerking the steering wheel of this particular vehicle. It's fucking exhausting to have to hold my tongue in meetings when I so badly want to say "it's late because you decided to delay it when it was about to be done, and then a couple months later you decided that it was urgent and had to be done ASAP, and then you decided to reassign staff to an initiative that you just made up with no actual product definition. But that would get me fired.
Remember, class, because this will be on the test: capitalism is the superior economic system because it elevates people who allocate capital efficiently. Just don't ever look too closely at the input and output functions of any such definition of "efficiency" (hint: they conveniently tend to elevate people who are skilled at flattering capital owners).
I have noticed a real lack of qualified car mechanics. I mean people that can actually fix something in a car instead of just swapping pieces. Maybe that will be my next career.
Don't know where to start, though.
Most people that age right now have no idea where they are going or where they will end up. And not even in their delusions can they pretend the world will somehow magically care about them in another 30 years.
Personally I have given up on hoping for a nice planned and well executed life up through retirement. My own skill set just isn't valued enough by the markets to set myself up separated from the festering human pits. Im just going to go for as long as I can just to see how things go at this point. I always did enjoy thrillers and tragedies, it sucks to be in one but it is better than being in nothing at all. And if the world just keeps getting crazier, maybe ill just join them in being crazy and maybe hopefully go out with a bang near the end.
I'm in that group, and the only thing I hear is how women, immigrants and <<enter intersectionalist jargon here>> has it the worst. We're done with this shit. If you're thinking about suicide, seek other men, you will find more understanding than you think, it is worth living! Fuck this society, let the brotherhood flourish against it.
How is it possible for these websites to not offer a “reject all” button when it comes to cookies but instead “reject and subscribe?” Is that because they are paywall and the website is subscription based? I thought there was a new law that said website users needed to be able to reject cookies (google offers this now for example, a simple, one click reject all button)
This touches on many issues that basically amount to "society is deeply broken".
The first is that in many places, men over 50 are one layoff (or even one divorce) away from total financial ruin. Other comments here tell a story of people in tech who thought their careers were mapped out but AI has destroyed it all and they don't know what they're going to do. After 40, and after 50 in particular, once you lose that job your chances of getting another shrink drastically.
The second is patriarchy. Men tend to be valued and defined by what they can do and provide. Lose that and you lose your identity. As other comments have said, you become invisible.
Third is the general idea that only one's ties to other people are keeping an awful lot of people here. There have been studies on this and psychologists have frameworks to describe this. In a world where society is falling apart that resistance is crumbling.
It costs so much to just live now. People might need 2 or more jobs and be one emergency away from ruin. Eventually a lot of people must think "why am I doing all this?"
Lastly, the article says "every suicide is a devastating tragedy". I... don't agree. Certainly people with terminal conditions or they have to live with, say, crippling mental health conditions, I have to respect people's choices. It's their life. They're the only ones who have to live it.
I'm in my 50s now. In some ways I'm quite fortunate but I also have not one not two but three disabilities: poor vision just hovering above legal blindness (and getting worse), ADHD and level 1 autism. The last two weren't diagnosed until my 40s. The medical consensus that you could have both only formed in the 2010s. Prior to that it was believed to be one or the other. ADHD can be treated but autism? You just have to live with it. And it's incredibly isolating in a way I know will never change. Fun for me.
I'm not a religious person. I'm a strict atheist actually. But I've had one unshakeable belief my entire life and that is that I won't live to be old. I have no basis for that belief but I can remember thinking 30 years ago there's less than 50% chance of making it to 60 and less than 10% of making it to 70. No idea why.
I've now had Covid 6 times, which is funny given how isolated I am but despite 5 jabs, each time it's worse. I'm kinda surprised I don't have Long Covid honestly. The last time I was bedridden for 2 weeks and it took 4 weeks to "recover". To physically exert myself really took almost 3 months. Do I see myself surviving that another 10-20 times? No.
I guess another aspect to all this is a thing called passive suicidal ideation. A lot of autistic people have this apparently and it's not so much a desire to end it all but rather kinda wishing just not to be here. It's just too hard. I... get it. It's kinda like wishing some other sperm impregnated that ovum years ago.
Sometimes I think joining a cult wouldn’t be too bad right about now. Hear me out: a bunch of people pool money to buy a massive amount of land somewhere and then building everything they need by hand: homes, farms, etc. and everyone has a strong sense of community from daily interaction and shared purpose, with regular rituals to keep a sense of stability. If we must work by manual labor, it is more satisfying to work to benefit those around you than for increasingly worthless dollars. No smartphones or thinking machines allowed.
I've had this thought many times, though a big part of a cult is like being employed: they let you be in the cult because they can pay you less than what you generate for them.
You feel a lot differently about not getting paid when you're working 10 hour days doing farm labor and can't afford to go anywhere even if you get a little time off. Cults intentionally pile on work to separate you from any existing friends/family/acquaintances.
The people running cults don't really want co-ops, they are almost exclusively narcissistic egomaniacs, they're doing it specifically to extract something from you. For men this is generally manual labor, money, and protection, from women it's often sex, child-rearing, and housework. If you're of the mind to stand up for yourself or others they'll kick you out pretty quickly if you don't submit via degradation and humiliation.
There's a reason it's only appealing in theory, there's a ton of reading from ex cult members to back this up... look into "Escaping Utopia" "Take Back Your Life: Recovering from Cults" and "Terror, Love and Brainwashing." Even intelligent and intentional people get sucked into these dynamics.
The alternative is stay in a capitalist system, get paid little working a shitty job, that never really affords you time to go on a vacation anywhere, and have no real family or community at all. Honestly you’re not making cults sound unattractive compared to the looming alternative in the high unemployment AI dominated world.
Sucks when friends dies. Cancer, accidents and so on is just terrible, but suicide really sucks. One of my old friends ended his life a couple of years ago. It really hit me.
At the end of the day we (men) are the ones expected to provide, to win over the women, to keep the marriage from falling apart, to keep the kids safe. And at any point we fail in our career or one of these things we are left staring into the abyss with no one to help us but ourselves. This is why I reject a lot of liberal views. Even when we tried equality, all we did was take away power from the man that is still expected to do everything.
Mid-40s western man living far from the West. Have three young children with a mom who is currently ineligible to hop on a plane with me back to my country of origin.
If you haven't already made it like the good times claiming influencers (@@ dhh and levels) who've accrued enough capital to ride whatever wave comes it is looking pretty bleak under these waters.
At least with my pension's survivor benefits and savings the kids would be able to make it til their 20s well supported with a better quality of life than what it looks like the labor market will afford me.
A few years ago, I had a series of health conditions that left me in unbearable suffering every moment of every day. At a certain point, when it was obvious that there was no probable way out, my mind reflexively starting tell me to kill myself. I would look at any menial object and my mind would automatically start considering ways I could use that object to end my life.
This went on for months, on and off. I wouldn't say I "endured" it, but I trained myself to just try to get through the next hour, or the next minute if things were really bad.
I'm much better now and that experience in many ways helped me, but I have no romantic feelings about it and I'd prefer if it hadn't happened. If someone had given me a painless out that I could trust back then, I almost certainly would have taken it. Instead, I learned acceptance in a pretty awful way.
I'm saying this for a specific reason: for many people, their suicide isn't some act of "giving up" or not being willing to endure; it's that some physiological process has begun that strongly urges you to do it every moment of every day. I understand why people have some anger or disappointment with loved ones who have died by suicide, but I personally do not feel that way. After what I experienced, I'm just happy that any of us get a chance to live in peace at all.
i agree with the sentiment. i have felt suicidal on and off pretty much my whole life, but that is a very different feeling from those moments where you experience a drive to immediately end your life.
many years ago, i had similar experiences with seeing objects and feeling pulled to use them to end my life. the magnitude of desire to end my life was quite terrifying at times. its like i was completely okay with doing it because it was the only thing that mattered in the moment.
i had an attempt when i was in elementary school still. it was as if i couldn't stop myself from just hurting myself. it really was me grabbing something next to me and immediately and trying to use it to kill myself.
i wonder what causes that feeling when emotionally distressed. that is when you are most vulnerable to actually committing suicide i feel like, not the long bouts of contemplation. although, that leads to suicide commonly enough as well.
The really scary thing is that we're at the beginning of the AI revolution, and even more people will be out of their jobs soon. It will only get worse for a next decade or so.
I'm almost 50, so it's too late to go into trades. Things are not looking good.
Yes. There are traps and many kinds of countries in "Europe", but in many of them you're guaranteed to never be homeless or starving or left without medical care long term if you accept the help.
We live in a winner-takes-all world. Either you are compounding success, or you are compounding failure. Middle-age is when all potential has been spent and where you are is essentially where you will be until you die. Some middle aged men are billionaires with access to nearly anything they could want. Others have seen only repeated failures, accelerated by an economy that doesn't reward anyone but the most nimble, intelligent, or sociopathic.
I wrote this about overcoming the suicidal urge, what I learned beating an “incurable” diagnosis without meds, and how it’s informed my coaching of some of the most successful unicorn founders in history.
Even before opening the article it made me think, am I middle aged man already? Never thought about it until today, I remember watching American Beauty before going to serve in military in my late teens thinking it's basically my father's age (though Spacey was at time of shooting 39-40 and my father was older), just now realizing I am at same age as Lester Burnham, married for 10-15 years with 2 kids.
I have less and less jobs "thanks" to AI, though I have my savings, which should maybe cover me already for the rest of my life, but even if they were going to wiped I don't see reason to kill myself over stupid money, it's just money. I had these ideas maybe as stupid teenager, but can't think of killing myself while having two kids, how would that help them or even me, what financial issues would I resolve by killing myself? I mean what's the worst scenario that can happen, ending homeless on street, where you can still enjoy life doing nothing.
Now since my income/jobs are dwindling I am thinking where to move with my career, though I wouldn't call it career since I don't desire some growth, but I would be perfectly fine with doing librarian (which seems like pretty laid back job with not so great salary, but enough to get by, another one to consider would be night watchman I guess or some museum supervisor) or whatever the least responsibility job you can find (cough American Beauty reference, cough[1]), in the worst case you can always find job in Lidl, I guess it is still better than being homeless on street and you can enjoy interaction with coworkers compared to working from home 10+ years. Heck I was even considering whether I could do some job where I would be contributing to wellbeing of other people like emergency services hotline (been doing something similar in past) to give your life extra meaning, but not really needing this, seems USAns are obssesed with this idea being defined by job, for me job is just a way to make enough money and it doesn't define me. I mean even in US can't you just move to some small place with low living expenses and find there whatever shitty job and just enjoy your life in your spare time without participating in rat race?
Btw. article says
"Those aged 50 to 54 are at greatest risk of taking their own lives as charities warn deaths ‘remain stubbornly high’"
"There were also increases in suicides among pensioners, with the biggest rise among those aged 75 and older, while the rates among men under 45 fell slightly."
Which makes me think men under 45 are still not considered middle aged since they mention rates under 45 fell.
TLDR it seems if you are under 45 as many commenters here claiming they are 36, 39, 40, 44, you are still not middle aged according this article, though google AI overview tells me "Middle age for men generally starts around 40 to 45 years old, as defined by organizations like the National Institute on Aging."
Another pretty good advice for life, it will take only few minutes of your time, hard to disagree with anything said in the video:
Yes because when you are struggling to take care of yourself, piling on vet bills and food and more responsibility, and less social time will really help.
I love my dog but absent my partner's desires, I don't think I would've taken it on. The cost, attention, potential behavioral issues, the prospect of losing them eventually are not for everyone.
Worrying over another being you are responsible for and thinking less about yourself and your own situation...just might help with depression I would think.
And nothing increases the desire for other people to be sociable with you than walking a dog.
I'm working on this actually. I had a dog for 12 years and she really kept me going. Saved me. But she died a couple years ago, literally the day after one of my parents, and it's been tough. But I'm really thinking about getting another dog; I really want to get another dog.
Dear HN, please stop posts like this in making to the top page. This actually normalizes the idea of suicide even with people not thinking about it. I don’t remember the book but it has been discussed a lot in psychological aspects of these news articles influencing the behaviour in them.
Because it's highly relevant, I'm going to paraphrase a comment I made last week:
I think a big part of the problem is that middle-aged men are at the apex of their expectations to be successful in the eyes of society, and we are living through a period of time where success is very hard to define, much less attain.
There is a name for this in sociology: anomie [1]. Émile Durkheim coined it in his book Suicide, written not too long after the Industrial Revolution.
In times of great change, the set of norms and rules that we take for granted as an organizing principle of our lives get uprooted. It's as if all of the pieces and tokens and rules of the board game we played our whole lives are swept off the table to make room for a new game, but the new game has not been set up yet. In that interim, we all feel a sense of unease. It is our turn to move, but we don't know the rules of the game or what moves to make. We feel intense pressure to play the game well, but don't know how.
In the past, these transitions have ended and society has generally returned to some sense of stability. A new board game gets set up, new pieces doled out, we learn to play the new game. I hope we get to that point with AI soon, but the revolutions seem to keep coming faster and faster.
I think for a lot of men, it feels like just at the time when we should be able to rest on our laurels a bit after having worked so hard to play the game society told us to, the rules have been ripped out from under us and any sense of security going forward is lost. We feel too old to learn the new rules of the game in time to play well, but not old enough to be able to abstain from playing.
It's a psychologically very difficult time.
[1]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anomie
We feel too old to learn the new rules of the game in time to play well, but not old enough to be able to abstain from playing.
Well said.
Well said! 5 years ago I could have a pretty solid picture of what my career would look like through retirement.
Today, unclear what that would look like as well as unclear if the career will even exist that long.
One sunny spot I have is that life is very long. I think I have 1.5 careers left in me, and a full pivot is alright. I've been talking with older folks, and loads of people have historically done giant pivots at midlife.
pivot to what though, if "mind" jobs are going to be automated, it's not like there's a category of jobs that opens up, and going from mental to physical jobs in your 50s doesn't seem that easy
Physical jobs will drop in demand and increase in supply too. Unemployed "mind" workers don't have much to spend to drive much demand in manual work, and they might even try to pivot themselves to manual work, making things worse for manual workers.
and those who did the "mind jobs" 30-40 years ago retain that wealth, while wages plummet and they don't have to give up any significant part of their wealth to get what they want. This destroys class mobility , creating a type of feudalism.
“Physical jobs will drop in demand too”
Why?
It seems unlikely "physical AI" will be a complete bust but the post you're replying to is positing that fewer people will have money to spend on their services.
Thx - that’s a valid point
Yeah, fewer "office jobs" and more automated jobs in general, means less demand for manual jobs from those (as money will be tighter).
But also, many existing office jobs type will try (or be forced) to get into manual jobs, and many young people will see AI-dominated fields as a dead end and also try to get into a manual job career, increasing supply, and further driving manual job wages down.
Exactly. There is no safe career. None. If AI replaces even a modest chunk of the knowledge workers, salaries across the entire workforce are going to tank. Some very specialized areas that require a lot of training may be insulated for a time, but even they will inevitably feel the impact.
I'm glad I'm not inclined to be a doomer, because the future would seem pretty bleak.
A lot of well-paid physical labor is going to face more competition from DiY + AI guidance among able-bodied and cost sensitive adults.
Even 1.5 years ago I replaced a blower motor in my vehicle with something like Sonnet 3.8 as the driver - saving myself $400 in labor and having a fun and educational experience to boot. Many home repair items fall into categories like this, where the actual physical skill demands are fairly low, but skills + background knowledge + supplies-on-hand were the value driver.
The BG knowledge is now available to anyone for free, and it comes with its own knowledgeable shopper.
Because we have a largely paper pushing service economy and so the guy who's plumbing a luxury condo is dependent upon the existence of some overpaid javascript monkey who the builder/financiers are counting on to buy the condo when it's done.
If you automate the paper pushing what happens? Jeff Bezos isn't gonna buy more condos.
but one of his execs will buy and raze the whole block and build himself a luxury compound?
It's a spectrum, with "physical" and "mental" at each end.
Some of Software folk i know move to repairing electronic devices for living. He still works in AC-room, but instead of holding mouse and keyboard most of the time, now he holds meter probe and soldering iron.
I guess being soldiers in the war against robots and their owners is a kind of physical job
> One sunny spot I have is that life is very long.
Not sure exactly where you are in it, but as a 53 year old I disagree. The younger I was the less likely I would have been to disagree but imo/ime the older you get the faster it feels like it is flying by.
> and a full pivot is alright
The AI-related existential dread is that it is very unclear what a pivot looks like when the ground under everything is shifting all at once.
The shifting is certainly a lot more obvious in our career than some others, but all of that shift (so far) happened more or less in a mere 10 months and is accelerating. And I don't think it is very likely that our career will stay anomalous for very long in terms of how much AI impact there is.
yeah, you're down to like 3/4 a career left, it makes sense that you feel that way. Less runway ought to feel different.
I do agree that a safe 'next' is unclear. But I also think if ai truly hits all knowledge work as hard as it might we're looking at up to 50% unemployment. Frankly there is no point career planning at all in that scenario. We will all have much larger problems.
And if it doesn't, then pivoting to some field with a combination of rewarding work and 'enough' pay seems sensible enough.
>some field with a combination of rewarding work and 'enough' pay seems sensible enough.
What makes you believe those jobs will still exist or will be available to you competing against massess of other now unemployed software devs? Overabundance of desperate workers will depress wages.
> if ai truly hits all knowledge work as hard as it might we're looking at up to 50% unemployment. Frankly there is no point career planning at all in that scenario. We will all have much larger problems.
You missed the happy path.
> yeah, you're down to like 3/4 a career left
If that much. I'm 52, and I wish I had decided 20 years ago that I'd rather do something meaningful. Like become a doctor. It would not necessarily be impossible to pivot to that now, but it would be very expensive and have a good chance of failure. If everything went smoothly, I could be a doctor just in time to retire.
>loads of people have historically done giant pivots at midlife
Lots of people didn't have their field automated away though alongside most other knowledge work fields, or seen at the same time a drop in demand in manual work and an oversupply (drop in demand because of upcoming AI layoffs, and oversupply in manual fields, because of same)
Everyone can't be a plumber.
In fact one of the worst "trade offs" of the trades is they can very much be a young mans game.
It gets real hard to sling water heaters up/down tight stairs or pull cable in a 100+ degree attic into your 50s.
> Everyone can't be a plumber.
Yes, but not for the reasons you say. It’s because if everyone is a plumber, you don’t need plumbers.
Also I imagine a lot of demand for plumbers might drop because AI might help you to learn to solve easy cases. Imagine you turn on you camera and it would just tell you what to do exactly.
Yes, buuut: I think we are already really close to that for a long time. You could learn a lot just from internet and youtube. But most people, I feel, just do not like to neither do plumbing/diy nor learn about it. Like if I tell people they can save hundreds of € by changing their own brake pads and that it is really easy to diy, they just shrug and go to the mechanic. So I am not sure if AI will really increase the percentage of people willing to learn these skills and do repairs etc
Yeah the information has been available for awhile. What stops people is all the indoctrination and conditioning.
"I'm not allowed to replace my water heater, the government says I need permits, the government says only a plumber can connect a gas line"
I don't think people realize that the people doing entry level skilled work like replacing your water heater or swapping your brakes at jiffy lube often only exceed the caliber of labor that's in a McDonalds when it comes to attendance and pissing clean.
Some stuff you really shouldn’t do just because you saw some youtube videos, and it has fuck-all to do with “government indoctrination.”
I grew up in trades. I’ve seen shit work and dangerous work and serviceable work and beautiful work. And sometimes even I didn’t actually know the difference until an inspector (and family member) explained it.
So I do small stuff. If it’s serious and I can afford it, I use a trusted professional.
> So I do small stuff. If it’s serious and I can afford it, I use a trusted professional.
I'm with you here. Though I have to say, on the flip side, oftentimes when I choose to DIY something it is because I don't necessarily trust that I can find a professional who won't cut corners in ways not obvious to me. I've seen it happen too many times. I may be a lot slower, but I'm extremely thorough at the stuff that I do myself.
I have just called a plumber to do a leaking radiator replacement. Not because I don't have the tools or I don't have YouTube, but because I didn't want to do it.
That was always true if you could afford it.
But get a little more squeezed and with less salary due to AI eliminating your job or your field's salary bargaining power, and you'll try to not call one if you can avoid it, even if you don't want to do it yourself.
Currently AI made me way more work and unpaid over hours already buy sorting out the 10x expectations and the slop grenades by the 10x workers, that is why i needed it... so I can't even have this much feeling of having accomplished anything myself.
I'm not sure how this will work out. Burnout will be standard, and almost universal soon, apart from the previous low-performer, low skilled bottom of barrel folks who will mass produce crap with this.
You've clearly never asked Claude for help with plumbing.
It's a humbling reminder that not all fields of knowledge application are verifiable in post-training.
Definitely. IMO, plumbing is one of those trades that videos on YouTube seem to help a lot more than an LLM. Code and simple stuff an LLM is great, but anything more complex or getting into heavy installation not so much.
Plumbers are paid well because of the way they organized.
-They restricted the number of apprentices. That limited the number of people in the field similar to medical school.
-They could bar substandard workers from practising in the city of London.
-They kept their craft knowledge in house and it was never written down. Apprentices swore oaths never to reveal the “secret of the mystery.”
If you look at programming we do everything the opposite. It’s no wonder salaries will collapse. In fact the only question is why didn’t they collapse sooner.
That'll be Wario's arc in the next Super Mario movie.
"...And when everyone's a plumber... no one will be!"
Get the young guys to do the lifting, there’s still plenty of room for old guys with experience who know all the tips, tricks and gotchyas.
Edit: Fair point, you don’t want to be entering a trade which requires heavy lifting as an older guy with no experience.
To be an old guy with experience you need to start as a young guy.
When you lose your white collar job to AI you don’t have those tips, tricks, and gotchas for whatever work is left for you.
If you are 40 making a career change you have no experience tips or tricks.
> One sunny spot I have is that life is very long. I think I have 1.5 careers left in me, and a full pivot is alright.
I'm 41 and I could, in theory, pivot. But realistically: I'm good at exactly one thing in this world in terms of job ability. I can cook, I can bake, I can play music, but none nearly well enough to actually make a living on it. Thus the end of my tech career, if it should come to pass, basically means I will have to work menial jobs to get by. The future is very bleak for me, and the only real hope is that the tech industry will wake up to what a bad job LLMs do compared to humans. But while I think they will do that eventually, there's no telling how long it will take, and the thought that the market will eventually correct is cold comfort if I can't get a job in the meantime.
The LLMs actually do a better job compared to humans.. and it will only continue to improve
I'm in the same boat as you. I'm not sure what the pivot is.
Maybe, in the wake of our primary skill being devalued, we should (try to) combine multiple skills into something that has economic value, as Scott Adams put it - https://web.archive.org/web/20250910155157/https://dilbertbl...
maybe some just don't want to live that long. does everyone need to live as long as possible? you live your youth, and maybe that is enough for some.
if you start to hurt every day, get diagnosed with age-related disease, your cognition starts to deteriorate, etc, you might just decide "hey, i lived enough. i don't want to go through years of feeling like this."
I think about this increasingly often. I have accomplished much, and have seen much of the world. I have also lived through gruesome deaths in my family and have seen how aging in America, under American healthcare looks.
I retired in 2023, not because I could, but because I couldn't not. I'm almost 50. My parents died in their early 60s. I have some of their health problems, and some of my own. I also destroyed my back in a motorcycle accident many years ago and live with constant pain.
My favorite things to do, which bring my peace and joy, involve me sitting in a chair, which hurts my back. In my youth I rode my bicycle avidly, which now hurts my back. I love gardening, and if I do it too much, it hurts my back.
It became increasingly clear to me that my "purpose" in this country is to work until I die. I know that there are other countries, and other kinds of lives, but they are not where my wife and friends and life are.
I am happy, relatively healthy, and love life. I would like to live forever if I could. I know I could fill every minute of it with things I find interesting, even if it was just reading every single book.
But I've seen what American life looks like in your 60s and older, and it's not fucking pretty for most people.
A hurting back on a bike might be an issue of bike fit. Bicycle touring is a hobby regarded as accessible to even the elderly, and indeed one often comes across people age 50-80 on popular routes. Many of them will complain about a bad back off the bike when doing other things like camping or carrying panniers, but a fitted bike should not strain one's back.
Are you a bot? Seriously? The dude said he roached his back in a moto accident... no coming back from that
Are you me? My old motorbike injuries are a little more distributed but -- like yours -- almost entirely crippling from the perspective of doing anything joyful; we're in the same bucket yearwise; and it sounds like we always visit the doctor with just the one bullet in the chamber.
Mostly just posting to say, hey, there's others out here like you. Hang in there, Almost-Me. If not, see you on the other side.
Have you tried drinking cherry juice? I heard moving to Washington can help due to the air there.
IME cycling a recumbent can ease stress on the back. https://sheldonbrown.com/org/greenspeed-index.html
Sure its a little off putting but if you've the time and money it could be worth trying.
Deadlifts helped my chronic congenital back pain that is probably some combination of DDD and scoliosis and multiple herniations. Yes sometimes it pisses off the disks and I'm pretty useless for a day or two. And yes it has added some other problems. But overall I went from constant sharp pain nearly unable to remain seated, to occasional dull pain I can ignore, and rarely some really bad pain. Overall it's much better of a life.
Same here, really life changing for me with a back injury. I recommend hex bar deadlifts as they put much less pressure on the lower back than conventional ones. And front squats for the same reason.
Have to disagree there as it doesn't make much sense. The point is to strengthen the muscles of the back. Keeping a more vertical back angle directly reduces force on those muscles while keeping the same spinal compression. You want the opposite, to have maximal muscle involvement with minimal compression. Back extensions progressing to normal deadlifts are indicated.
I have done both extensively and heavy, and like you said yourself, with the barbell deadlift you will sometimes trash your back. Yes it does work the back muscles a little harder, but for me the extra risk isn't worth it. Also with the trap bar you can lift more weight so it balances out.
That's why Mishima topped himself at the age of 45: as a physical-conditioning buff and gay man, he came to a firsthand realization that it was all downhill from there. What you posted is very similar in spirit to the opening of his last novel.
For most people, the real physical deterioration doesn't have to kick in until age 65 or so (plus or minus). But you do have to show up every day and hit it hard. In the last triathlon I raced there were men in that age group still finishing with fast times. And they're not genetic freaks either, just consistent.
I don't know, I think if you are a body builder or elite athlete there is plenty of difference even at 45.
We're talking about regular middle-aged men here, not elites.
Well, if you've seen photos of Mishima, he is not really a "regular middle-aged man."
FWIW, you can remain in pretty extraordinary physical shape through your 50s as a matter of biology. You do have to put in the work though.
Much easier said than done. Ending your life is the last decision you'd make.
I defined success for myself quite a few years ago: I want to leave the world better than I found it. No high aspirations, no figure. Just better than it was.
Some of that is political advocacy. Some of that is open source code that should exist. Some of that is helping a neighbor. I don't need to hit a certain bar, I just need to know that in a given interaction or situation, I am trying to make things... at least a little better.
That also scales well to differing life decisions. The video game I'm playing, can I get people to play a little nicer with each other and have more fun? Workplaces are full of dumb stuff, success is making it at least a little better. Turns out I have kids now. Wasn't the plan, but now my obligation is to make sure my involvement in their lives is positive. Not a specific bar I have to achieve, but you know, someday I hope someone appreciates how I chose to live my life.
"To laugh often and much, to win the respect of intelligent people and the affection of children, to earn the appreciation of honest critics and endure the betrayal of false friends, to appreciate beauty, to find the best in others, to leave the world a bit better, whether by a healthy child, a garden patch... to know even one life has breathed easier because you have lived. This is to have succeeded!" - Emerson
Is that not the epitome of the classic mid life crisis?
You hit a point in your life, reflect back on where you'd thought you'd be when you were in your early 20s, and think.. shit.. what I do all of this for?
This isn't even a flippant comment (especially given the subject matter); being at this age and thinking "I imagined it would all be easy by now" does hit home.
Internal vs external.
The midlife crisis is probably better described as a change or unease in the self and not knowing why you get out of bed in the morning anymore and that entire adventure, whereas this anomie is the social environment you're moored to breaking down.
> Is that not the epitome of the classic mid life crisis?
I think there's a step change from say the silent gen/baby boomer generations where a midlife crisis was realizing you lived the classic "American Dream" but weren't going to be a rockstar or super wealthy, compared to now where a midlife crisis could easily be wondering if you will continue to have any economic value at all years before social security kicks in.
Admittedly this is America-centric, but that's my lived perspective, and also I recognize that things weren't always very stable even here, thus why I am comparing a couple of specific generations to the ones that followed.
There was, for a time when I was younger (as a Gen-Xer), just an assumed sense that each generation would have it better than the last. Naive, perhaps, but alas. And obviously far less people assume that anymore.
Don't forget that social security has been raided and won't even be available for those of us reaching middle age right now and the people we keep electing who say they will do something about it have shown over and over and over that they actually won't.
Anomie plus helplessness plus a feeling of a rug pull of the laws/equality/character of our country. I am not suicidal but wow I get it.
SS was not "raided" . Whatever made you think that is surely contributing to human misery. It's just running out because it's always been a scheme where the young pay the old and we have fewer young than old. The people getting SS payments, themselves paid into it! It's not any sort of raid, corruption, evil...
And it's actually fairly easy to fix if we raise the social security income tax cap. Next year it's $192,300. Raising that cap significantly (or even eliminating it) would extend solvency for quite a while longer.
I thought it was possible a generation could have it worse off through an economic crisis or period of 70s style malaise, but I at least thought the government would attempt to improve the lives of its citizens. I didn't expect the ruling political party to be so aggressively trying to make our lives worse.
>Is that not the epitome of the classic mid life crisis?
Not anymore than WWII deaths are the epitome of "classic early life suicide".
If it was "the classic mid life crisis" the rates wouldn't be "highest ever" (as per the post).
> You hit a point in your life, reflect back on where you'd thought you'd be when you were in your early 20s, and think.. shit.. what I do all of this for?
Do people who say this have kids? I ask genuinely. Everything before my little dude was fake. Everything since him is real deal Holyfield. Probably knock off in the next 20 minutes and take him to Home Depot to look at some bullshit because we have a good time with that kind of thing.
I would think those with kids at that age that wanted them worked backwards from that mission, and if they have a midlife crisis it's some version of having spent too much time working and on their kid and start spending their money on low-impact possibly expensive hobbies they'd have liked to do in their younger years, somewhat in denial of the fact that they sold their whole life to the man despite raising a kid.
But that sounds nice! Let me reword: after getting through the messy middle of establishing a career and weathering the insane time and money necessary to rear a young kid, a dude finds himself with a little more time and money, and doesn't know what to do with himself. He gets a fishing rod/road bike/membership at makerspace/skein of nice yarn and some circular needles/signs up for his first powerlifting meet. He makes new friends, shows his kid a new side of himself, and maybe gets a nice steelhead/race trinket/dining table/scarf/medal out of the whole thing.
Yeah, that's an adaptive use for the impulse. Sometimes people go for destructive ones instead.
Sure, seems like it would be a standard path in another time. The real personal crisis in that position these days is probably being forced to find a new career instead of or alongside raising a kid. Unless you get quite lucky, things can get dark very quickly. Job loss creates stress, prolonged unemployment might break up your relationship, lose access to the kid maybe, and suddenly you're destitute. It's hard to see prospects for normal people getting better, and it makes more sense to avoid the kid and the house.
I can imagine having kids is super rewarding, but also amplifies the pressure of being a provider probably 100x. In uncertain times, I think a lot of us aren't sure how we'll provide for ourselves in ~5 years, let alone a tiny dude, which plays into the decision to not have kids.
I'm still gainfully employed, and business is ripping, but a huge part of my value as a professional got totally vaporized over the last year. So part of me is extremely glad I don't have kids right now, and part of me is really angry that everything feeling so unstable is leading to our decision to not have them. I know that even in the best time it's a scary decision, but the general vibe is flipping people (like my wife and i) who are at the margin.
> a huge part of my value as a professional got totally vaporized over the last year
We are all descendants of like 1,000 individuals who kept having lil babies through an ice age. There are mobile home parks full of happy kids dotting my town, populated by people who paint houses and do landscaping and make ends meet. I have no idea what your profession is or what your housing situation is, so maybe that's already where you are. My wife and I talk gratitude a lot, and that includes being grateful that if we had to dig ditches to keep a double wide over our heads, we'd go ahead and do that and have some giggles with our little miracle in there.
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Nah you're way off the mark here and this sounds scarily like how people feel when at their most bleak. I hope this is just you reflecting and not how you feel "in real life" - family needs family and kids need their parents. Kids need their parents even if they're broke and/or out of work.
I am in this awkward situation where I just had a baby, but at the same time feel I should work less and put less effort into work. But at the same time not being able to slow down.
I daydream about being fired with severance so I can spend more time with my little dude. But also deadly afraid of not being able to get another job when savings run out.
Welcome to fatherhood.
Congrats on baby and best of luck balancing this. In my limited experience it's the balancing that is the actual work that allows all the other domestic and professional work for this part of my life.
that's what I felt about moving to a different country, too, until I didn't.
I think these things are less consistent than is often stated, we just see them occur consistently among people with similar lives. The "mid life crisis" is also debunked and replaced by "existential crisis" since it can actually occur at any age, from teenager to elderly, and zero, one, or multiple times. Only in the classic life progression of a certain era, it typically occurred worst at around 40-45 so it got that label.
Yes, men who have children do go through nihilistic existential mid life crises too. That age has their biggest risk of cheating on their partners, fathering new children with work colleagues, walking away from marriage, developing drug and alcohol dependency, developing serious gambling problems and other worse things. Parenthood reduces but does not eliminate the risk of suicide in middle aged men, and parenthood plus long term joblessness is a common cause.
Midlife anxieties are real and nothing in particular prevents it.
Yes. Come on, I love my kid, but you can't seriously be asking this question. Fatherhood is in fact sometimes part of what they're so dissatisfied with.
Kids will not always be kids.
I don't dismiss or discount your perspective but based on my social circle: Your experience of fatherhood is not the median. The variance is pretty high too.
I agree. I'm a father of two, and my existence didn't suddenly get meaningful when I had children. I always found it meaningful, only in the sense that I get one life and want to experience as much as I can while I have it. That is a big part of why I chose to have children, it seemed like basically *the* fundamental life experience. But for me, I didn't experience this sudden big gain in meaning that a lot of online fathers seem to have.
I also wasn't prepared for a bit of a curve ball and I have experienced a loss of self that hasn't recovered or been compensated for yet.
I often wish I felt like a lot of other online fathers, but I take comfort in knowing there are a lot of others out there like me who struggle with parenthood. I hope I figure it all out in time!
Only one kid and I can't pretend it is all sunshine and rainbows, but there are real moments that make some of the other things irrelevant. It is possible that I went into fatherhood older and with eyes wide open so it was less of an adjustment, but it still surprised me in how things slowly re-aligned. Meaning was basically a side-effect of near exclusive focus on someone else ( for me ).
And that was my long way to say, the struggle is real and we are all figuring it out in real time. gl out there
I’m grateful for your comment. I’m also a father of two, and the “loss of self” has frankly worsened over time (though my oldest isn’t even 4 yet).
After the second, I thought it would get better, and that a Contented Doting Father would emerge from the ruins of my previous life. That the attention and effort required would simply obliterate any trace of my past self, and with it, any longing for the spontaneity and lightness and frankly selfishness of my child-free life.
But that hasn’t happened. There are moments of grace and joy, and I love my kids so deeply it’s painful (he says, truthfully, but defensively, because an admission like this from a father usually doesn’t go over well).
But counterintuitively, returning to the topic of the thread, if I DO lose my career, I will be doubly grateful for my kids. Because they DO love me unconditionally, and I them; they don’t care about status games or anomie or anything resembling a “career.” Perhaps starting over in a new field and moving to a cheaper COL area would finally clear space for the Contented Doting Father.
> a Contented Doting Father would emerge
Unsolicited pov. Don't do this to yourself. I don't doubt that there exists such a person, but it's not the norm and when it is observed I reckon it is as often someone feigning as it is anything else.
Love your kids and raise them as best you know how. That's the deal. That's enough. You are allowed space to miss aspects of your life before, and that may or may not fade.
I am also so grateful to hear this in response to my comment.
As far as I see it, I use the term "online fathers" in a rather cynical manner. In real life, I interact with parents who are struggling, I know some who are suffering from depression (I'm lucky to belong to a sports club where some dads unload). This is real life.
But go online and you'd think you're some sort of freak for not being completely transformed and having unconditional daily joy from being a dad.
By the way. The last week has been a good week. I've had a lot of work stress, but my children seem to have somehow sensed it and they're being extra kind to me, giving me lots of hugs and just wanting to be with me. It feels WONDERFUL. Like you, I love them more than I would have ever known, would literally die for them. But it is also ok to admit it is very hard, and there is a big loss of self and other aspects.
Keep going!
Kids loose interest in you as they age and do their own stuff. You are necessary for their survival, but they prefer company of peers. And then they leave.
All of that is normal, but you are left alone and if taking the kid somewhere was your only thing, you have nothing.
I had two kiddos by the time I as 23 and I'm in my late 40s now. I am super glad that they are off on their own, living their own successful lives and I am very proud of them.
You too will (hopefully) watch your children move away.
Personally, when I am down I've been feeling a little like I've finished the main quest in a video game. I can look to my kiddos and be happy that they are doing okay but I still have almost as much adult life in front of me as I have behind me.
While the philosophy degree I got when I was young has helped a lot, I'm middle age, twice-divorced, and haven't had (or needed) a "regular" job, bald (well, I rock a skullet and have 'aura' according to the youngesters), and I can't rock climb as hard as I used to. I don't really enjoy drinking anymore, and I don't enjoy many drugs at all. I've gotten to a position where it's hard to maintain the fantasies that make romantic partners appealing, and while I have deep and diverse friend groups, I still spend most of my time in a shack in the middle of nowhere writing music for no one.
When people shit-talk on humanities educations, it's been hard to keep my mouth shut because the real payoffs have been in being able to meet the long and large world with some equanimity and I feel incredibly privileged to have been so misguided in my early life that I got a deep and canonical education.
There are plenty of things that I can do- keeping with the video game metaphor, I feel like I am working through all possible side quests on hard mode. Being emancipated from my children means that I no longer have to earn very much money or even maintain a stable home if I don't enjoy it.
I bought some off grid land in the middle of nowhere and I am slowly getting utilities working in the shacks. I started doing way more direct political action, including getting an EMT cert so I could volunteer at the local free clinic. I have 4 bands and play 5-6 gigs a month and run an A/V company where I do another 2-3 gigs a month.
So, yeah, I've got a pretty good skill set, I have however easy a life that I choose, lots of engagement in my enclosure. I have kids I am proud of.
And even looking at all that, I look at even a couple of years and sometimes wonder "shit.. what I do all of this for?". And I know that in another 25 years I will still probably asking that question, wondering if there had been a better way to do the things.
Enjoy browsing stuff with your kiddos. That is indeed the important kind of activity. But also, understand that you too will (hopefully) face existential choices in the future.
Yeah I think having him later in my life and him still being a toddler just means "having kids" means wildly different things in our cases. In my case, the life altering pivots (getting sober, married, divorced) happened before meeting my wife with whom I had him. I guess I got extremely lucky having the nuclear life changer of a baby show up at the age where such a thing is welcome. We just started touring preschools and the rapid approach of a time where I'm not within 30 feet of him for 90% of the day is already a pretty daunting prospect.
Also to work so hard, and even when you have good luck as well, to see the people around you adapting their expectations so fast that they're blasé about what feels like amazing luck and success to you, and to realize that you can never satisfy them, only inevitably let them down when you experience setbacks.
>Is that not the epitome of the classic mid life crisis?
The classic epitome of the mid life crisis has always been something along the lines of, "I spent my whole life working and doing a job that I didn't like, sacrificing my youth and my precious time with my friends and family, and all I'm left with is money. My mortality is coming into view, my best years are behind me, and as I sit here in my big house with my fancy car, I realize I wasted all that time all chasing dollars."
That's a lot different than, "I spent my whole life working and doing a job that I didn't like, sacrificing my youth and my precious time with my friends and family, and I'm left with nothing at all. I have no prospect for retirement, will likely become homeless and destitute when I am unable to continue working and/or am laid off, and their is no future."
I think this is a perfect description. The feelings continue across generations with no answer. Meanwhile society continues to shift underneath mens' feet. And still tries to claim it is a personal problem. The browbeating/apathy continues.
Eh, I don't think today is really all that different from the last 100 years. We as software engineers may feel different as it's (maybe) our turn in the barrel.
Well said.
Part of working through history from (only) 100 years ago is an impression of how quickly societies were changing then. This isn't the first time we've had the table cleared, and it hopefully won't be the last.
Which isn't to downplay the upheaval that people are in - it is definitely traumatic. But we've been through disruption before. Hopefully we'll make fewer costly mistakes this time...
> This isn't the first time we've had the table cleared, and it hopefully won't be the last.
I don't think we should wish such evil upon future generations. The industrial revolution was a terrible time to live through, and arguably was not beneficial in the end to humanity. I would be very happy if we never had such a change again.
We can separate the table clearing from how we treat the players of the previous game.
We don't have many coal miners any more. How do we treat the people who used to be coal miners, when we get to 100% clean power? If we are running society well, we give them a hero's sendoff and a nice comfortable retirement life. If we are running society poorly, we take away their homes and healthcare to punish them for not having jobs any more.
On the mark.
I have however run out of fucks and am ignorantly coasting and making optimal survival decisions only. Fuck the business. Fuck the career. Highly recommended.
Hah likewise. In the early 2003's I was accepted into two of the top compsci universities in Canada but was rejected by the government for a student loan (my parent's income was too high, the government said-- they should pay. thanks government, no shit).
So I put all my fucks into working my ass off. Started dishwashing. Became a cook. Then owned a bakery. Built up a portfolio, became a sysadmin for a large company. After 6 or 7 years the writing was on the wall that I'd be replaced with a call center and some low wagies so I left.
Been working a do-nothing laid back remote job for a year now and never happier. My only source of stress is thinking that giving a shit when I was young would actually lead somewhere when I had the rug pulled under me from the get-go.
Do you have fuck you money?
I have enough money to live a relatively meagre existence. Anything on top of that is welcome.
Yup, I tell my partner all the time. I just want the new era to be here already. I hate this waiting. I'm very annoyingly optimistic and think we're headed for post-scarcity.
I hope you're right.
In wealthy first-world countries we're already post-scarcity to a first approximation for stuff like food, clothing, and consumer electronics (I do understand that a minority of people are still desperately poor). But the stuff that people really covet will always be scarce. For example, AI can't create new real estate in prime locations.
I'm a bit of an AI pessimist, but creating new prime locations is one thing I do think AI could feasibly do. I have been involved in regeneration projects for 30 years and so many of the limiting factors could theoreticslly be eliminated by AI.
> expectations to be successful
+1. Also maybe it's an age where responsibilities start to peak. More senior positions in the workplace, having children, marriage, etc.
I've had a few stressful periods lately where it felt or feels like I can't load any more on to my plate and I don't even have that many responsibilities - no kids either, just an accumulation of small and background things needing dealt with. I think I do understand people who do commit suicide to an extent - if you add the above normal stresses of life to some highly stressful life events like a breakup or divorce and throw kids etc into the mix - and hey why not a pile of work related stress too - I can absolutely see how people get pushed to the edge.
Modern society has not been arranged in a way that sets people up for success. Staring at device screens for more hours year on year likely doesn't help.
I mean, I kinda like having kids. Even if everything goes in the shitter economically ag least I have something in front of me that is obviously going well.
You never heard of people who kill their kids and then off themselves?
Mental illness finds a way.
> we are living through a period of time where success is very hard to define, much less attain.
Do you think this has changed from say 10 or 20 years ago? To me, I don't get the sense that there has been shift in the social definition of success. Maybe I'm missing something?
AI chatbots contributing to or reinforcing suicidal ideation.
In 2006 was success not having a big house in the suburbs and a six figure salary?
Right. Has that changed? Asking genuinely.
What's different is that people who thought they were basically on the "golden path" suddenly have no idea what their job looks like in five years or if it exists.
I agree for SWE specifically that AI is changing the career dramatically, and in a way that makes life less predictable. But I don’t know how the definition of success has changed - at least in America it still seems to be good professional job plus family.
You’re being pedantic about the literal wording and missing the intended meaning even though I just spelled it out for you.
Maybe spell it out in more detail? Forgive my inability to follow the argument.
My overall point is that what's happening in SWE right now is not happening (yet?) in other fields. And so we can't extrapolate from SWE experience to wider social experiance.
AI threatens to obliterate white-collar work entirely (whether it'll actually play out that way it's a possibility constantly talked about by executives and in the news), and that would plunge previously secure people into precarity. The idea this only applies to software engineers isn't true either.
> Do you think this has changed from say 10 or 20 years ago?
Yes, I do.
The goal is roughly the same: financial security, a good home, as much of a family as one cares to raise.
But for basically my entire life as a middle-aged American, there was a well-lit path to that goal:
1. Do good in high school.
2. Go to a university and get some four year degree. Obviously some degrees are duds, but basically any of them was considered a worthwhile investment.
3. Get a white collar job doing something intellectual. Make a decent salary at a stable company. Change jobs periodically as needed.
Now:
1. Doing well in high school is still important, but it is very easy for kids to get good grades using AI while not actually learning anything and not realizing they are setting themselves up for hardship.
2. College is so expensive now that determining which college and which degree is actually a sound financial investment is very hard. An 18 year-old-kid is being asked to make a financial choice with life-long consequences at a point when they have none of the expertise about their long-term goals to know what to do.
3. AI will very likely eliminate many of these jobs. People will be competing for fewer and fewer jobs and who knows what on your resume will actually help you stand out? Also, most of the blue collar jobs are already gone, either automated away (ag) or moved overseas (manufacturing).
There was also a sense in the US that even if the government wasn't great, it was at least functional and a source of relative stability run by somewhat mature adults. That is clearly no longer the case at the federal level.
This makes a lot of sense to me. I used to have plans for the future, I had the next couple of years mapped out. Then I tried AI and my plans simply dissolved. I have no idea what's going to happen now.
Feels like all the effort I put into coming this far was invalidated overnight. The writing is on the wall, and now I have about five years to get rich at any cost until it's all over. Now I'm firing from the hip in all directions, trying to hit something, anything.
I used to enjoy programming as a hobby, writing articles. It's all so meaningless now. What's the point?
I'm not sure a focus on getting rich is the answer, and you probably don't have 5 years before that window closes. I'm going to focus on trying to rebuild my business so that if other businesses were run the same way, we'd hopefully all keep most of our agency in the AI economy. If you can't build a business or a coop that way, activism on that front is probably a more valuable way to build yourself a brighter future.
I don't get why people say that they have X years to be rich. If the revolution is going to be that big, why do you believe that fiat money, real estate or even private property will be valid in that future? The owners of AI would have all the leverage, it doesn't matter how much money you have. And if AI is that revolutionary, it won't have owners
I am not sure if the success per se is the issue, but today things are definitely harder for many people compared to, say, 50 years ago for people of the same age. The available options for you, at age 55, are less with regards to success in general. And then it depends a lot on one's life too; for instance, are they single or not, do they have kids or not, and so forth.
> It's a psychologically very difficult time.
That's true, though it depends on how one handles that. But I think it is also clear that there are fewer options available when you are somewhat old already. People at age, say 20 to 25, may not feel a problem when they are gamers. At age 55, it is much harder to reason as to why you may wish to invest many hours per day into games; it just is not that productive, for most people (excluding e. g. playing to have fun, but that still does not answer the question of producitivity; I exclude professional gamers here, as they can often make a living just from donations, twitch etc.. but most people are not like that. Some of these gamers soon hit the age range 50+ by the way, I do watch a few of them every now and then.)
Personally I think it has to do it's harder than ever to meet and find a partner.
no rules/syllabus is an opportunity to be creative. No one has it figured out. Everyone is winging it. If you lock in, you will be the expert!
Never kill yourself, life is awesome after overcoming challenges
I'm sure some sociologists have written this already, but it seems to me that the people who commit suicide aren't those who are miserable and have few options. It's those who have lots and lots of options, but all options lead to unacceptably bad outcomes.
Microcredit in the third world is somewhat notorious for causing a rise in suicide rates. That fits the pattern: there's a huge number of things you can do to get money to pay back the loan, but if it gets out of hand, none of them get you remotely enough money to keep from sinking deeper into debt. Access to capital gives you many options - but it also makes it your fault when you didn't find the option which would lead you out of miserable poverty (which may not even exist!)
What any psychologist will probably tell you (at least, what all of them told me) is that clinical depression makes you bad at seeing options. Could it be that's in some sense a defense mechanism, trying to stop you from putting the really bad options on the table?
I disagree suicide's primay driver is having lost the sense of purpose and your identity taken away from you !
Okay. Can you think of some groups which have a low sense of agency/few options, yet have a high suicide rate because of their lack of purpose and identity?
I'm looking for evidence against this theory, so I'm very interested if you can find it. But I think it's going to be hard, because they're going to be correlated: if you have a weak sense of self and purpose, then very likely your options will all seem bad too. And even if you have a strong sense of who you are and what your purpose is, failing to live up to the identity society and yourself assign to you (because all the options you have fail at living up to it) then you could well call that "having your identity taken away from your".
Opinions are great and all but do you have actual data to back it up ?
> I'm sure some sociologists have written this already, but it seems to me that the people who commit suicide aren't those who are miserable and have few options. It's those who have lots and lots of options, but all options lead to unacceptably bad outcomes.
People don't all commit suicide for the same reasons. Durkheim's book Suicide which in some ways created the idea of sociology itself categorizes four types of suicide.
Durkheim's classification works as a description, but doesn't seem very good to predict which groups will have high suicide rates. Suicide follows some very odd patterns. For instance
* Black Americans have low suicide rates, lower than white Americans, who in turn have lower than indigenous Americans.
* The children of actors and celebrities have high suicide rates.
* Men have higher suicide rates than women.
* Wealthier countries seem to generally have higher suicide rates than poorer countries, but inside a country the poor usually have higher suicide rate than the rich.
* People with schizophrenia have sky-high suicide rates
The only common thread I can think of is a sense of agency - which means thinking you have many options - with hopelessness. When you can do a lot (or at least you think you can, or society thinks you can), but none of it helps with the things that matter to you.
* Victims of racism may paradoxically be somewhat shielded from suicidal despair from low expectations. But when racism comes with heavy romanticizing (e.g. "noble savage", "ancient proud culture"), expectations are not low. Yet, it's all too understandable why someone would want internalize these romantic, often openly envied identities, even when they're completely at odds with their material situation. You can't live up to it yet you feel like it's all you have.
* Children of e.g. wealthy actors are materially very comfortable and safe, and clearly have lots of agency and choice - but what do they want, when they don't need to strive for wealth, any social acclaim they earn may be tainted by the suspicion that they didn't earn it fairly, and they in any case are unlikely to surpass their parents?
* One typical schizophrenia symptom is sense of agency disturbances. They often feel like they are in control of things they aren't, or don't have control of things which they do. The former, combined with seeing bad things happen (for instance on TV) can really devastate them.
Sorry but it has very little to do with expectations. As a middle aged man you have very little opportunity to start a new career (regardless if there is even any remaining soon). In an absolutely objective way, physically and socially.
I disagree with a lot of these social analysis texts because I think they misunderstand a fundamental premise. There is no pressure from society today, on the contrary. You had that when we were living in villages where everyone knew each other and it is what city dwellers escaped from.
But this never had been reevaluated. Modern societies are detached, nobody really cares what you do, you don't know your neighbours, you have no "third place" or common place any more.
So norms and rules are far less pronounced than in any other time in human history, far less so.
If you go out without pants in a big city, very few people would care. In better situated parts, you can expect that the police will probably pick you up. In less fortunate environments, you would just be pantless.
This is the opposite of expectations and pressures. I think many just aren't really part of a society or environment any more.
For some that is a great loss while others strive in this state as well. For many having some kind of responsibility is a very important part of their lives, but modern societies offer little here. We optimise for as little attachment as possible to stay flexible and dynamic. That of course can be a pressure as well, but not in the sense it is often suggested.
But summarised I think the problem is fundamentally misunderstood: Society doesn't put pressure on anyone, society simply stopped caring about you. I think this is what most societal analysts get completely wrong.
>There is no pressure from society today, on the contrary.
What!?
The examples you give implies people are ok with being bums on the street (and if you think that life is "easy", boy, you're massively detached from reality).
Have you heard that a record number of people still live with their parents after 30?
Have your heard that a record number of people do not own their home these days? It has never been worse.
Have you heard that entire professions are being rendered obsolete due to AI and other economic factors?
Are you aware that almost nobody who is middle-aged (the demographic of TFA) will retire with enough money to make a living off it?
Explain to me how is that a chill, no-pressure life? I do not see it.
You might try to "akshually" your way into "but I'm talking about social pressure", but all of those things are social in nature.
>So norms and rules are far less pronounced than in any other time in human history, far less so.
Ever heard of "misgendering"?
A guy re-posted a meme (not of his authorship) and went to jail, lost his job, etc[1].
Two parents were arrested in front of their kid for complaining about their school, another guy spoke bad about his past employer (but not threatening behavior) and got arrested and his property seized, etc... [2]
Yeah sure man, quite relaxed times, like never before.
1: https://www.bbc.com/news/articles/cg7pyjxjxrvo
2: https://freespeechunion.org/news/fsu-dealt-with-211-cases-wh...
He means for normal people, sure if you go around assaulting people like you could in the unenlightened times you get more pressure. What you both mean by "pressure" is oversocialization you are just looking at 2 sides of the same coin. Well his point is more about people feeling uncared for, I doubt that drives people to suicide. One explaination is that is could this mental l strain could increase the liklihood for mental illness, but that's flat for men in the articles age bracket. You posit that people kill themselves because they have a tough life, again that isn't born out in the data. Indeed collecting data for this is akin to hitting a dartboard while drunk and skydiving and the board is 2 miles away.
The point of society you can increase "true freedom" by restricting people's ability to act arbitrarily, so called "naive freedom". If people can't accept that then they can go live in the woods (not anymore), the ocean, the moon? mars? or end it.
From time immemorial the winners shaped society what do you think happened to the losers? Just because we leave them alive now doesn't mean they can live in the new world.
Also "highest ever" among some specific arbitrary demographic isn't very meaningful enough to draw out anything beyond free association.
> "highest ever" among some specific arbitrary demographic isn't very meaningful
It's meaningful if you do actually happen to be of that demographic. It's no longer arbitrary then, sure, but I do care quite a lot if something bad is affecting men because I'm one of those.
Not only that, but many of the people I care most about in the world are men too ! probably a bit over half!
Also, how specific is "middle aged men"? thats a huge portion of society - I'd have understood your point if this was about like, people employed as painters in texas. But this has such a huge N, alongside a relatively unambiguous test (I trust reporting of these statistics more or less)
those things are evidence of that societal pressure relaxing...they simply weren't an option before.
> The examples you give implies people are ok with being bums on the street (and if you think that life is "easy", boy, you're massively detached from reality).
Which part of the comment implies this?
I think you need to separate these issues. Economic pressure is a separate concern that doesn't stem from a more arbitrary source. A society can and should shield you from it, but doing so will always create societal expectations on someone else.
If you cannot provide for yourself, someone else has to do so. That someone else technically might be subjected to societal expectations to not leave you behind because he has the means to do so. Mothers still have large expectation on them on how they have to treat their children. If those run around freely, you will get a lot pressure in the US. Quite a silly country. But I believe this is an exception to the general development.
I separate purely economic pressure from the moral and ethical requirements you have today and these are clearly declining in my opinion. These were always subjected to change, but usually expectations get exchanged for new ones and old ones are done away with.
Weird gender science, middle eastern war or domestic politics experts are loud and they do indeed put forward expectations. But their ambitions aren't generally awarded by society, on the contrary. Sometimes for very good reason, sometimes not. But generally there are far less expectations for behaviour, expression, opinions. Also sometimes for good reason and sometimes not.
I think most societies lost expectations and care less about their environment (no in the ecological sense, but that too...).
Certainly the level of detachment and alienation has been growing for a long time and is now at quite an extreme. I’m not sure that I would characterize that by saying there is less societal pressure overall though. People feel pressure for lots of reasons and it doesn’t necessarily require the judgment of another individual observing them.
Strong disagree.
on the one hand, we're detached; on the other hand, social media in particular -- and the media in general -- has increased the amount of pressure and painted a picture of "who you should be". The expectations are greater than ever because we are subjected to the knowledge of the expectations of everyone across the globe, and most of what we see are the "highlight reels" of the successes (or people trying to sell us something to be successful).
Contrary to your premise, society today applies tremendous pressure because our awareness and the continuous bombardment of information, amplifies it. And unless you decide to go and live off grid, or you have a personality such as you can say FU to the world on a daily basis, it's impossible to escape.
Agree. Teen suicide rate correlates with Instagram marketshare and sadly nobody has a solution.
there is a lot of pressure from women because of their hypergamous nature. As they make more and more money get better careers, thair mating pool of mdn they want and who also want them shrinks substantially
true but the pieces we value are also being pried from our hands.
I also don't think it compares to the industrial revolution, these are primarily sociological conditions - these suicidality figures predate the current AI implications.
No. All that would apply to women too. Men are abused in the West, oh for a few decades now. Women are taking all the college slots, taking most of the new job openings, having more sex and offspring, have more friends, are favored by the legal system, celebrated in the media rather than mocked and derided. Women have a lot of pent up rage after hundreds of years of their own abuse, now that the tables have turned, they are holding the whip hand now as it were…. It’s not anomie.
> they are holding the whip hand now as it were
They aren't holding the whip unless you give them the whip. Biologically you are the one with leverage. Probably economically too. You're the one doing this to yourself. Either stop doing it to yourself, or stop complaining about it
we are also flooded with the highly curated exceptionalism of others.
That is a very interested lens to view this issue through, I hadn't considered that! I'm not quite that age, though I think my age can be discerned from my post history lol, but even outside of being generally impacted by this, the biggest impact I've felt has been how others around me are reacting. Half a dozen INCREDIBLE engineers that I used to work with left explicitly because they don't like how AI is changing the industry.
I don't know, it feels to me, in my limited scope of experience and view, that things are getting a lot worse, very quickly, and it frightens the hell out of me.
There are numerous NDE reports that say people who commit suicide go through extreme agony after they die. It’s never an option. Tell this to anyone who thinks about this mistake and it may help him. Although he should do his own part of searching and listening to such stories to understand how big of a mistake this is.
> A new board game gets set up, new pieces doled out, we learn to play the new game
Reminds me of this idea about sport / competition from the parenting book, The Gardener and the Carpenter by Alison Gopnik. She says that children must be encouraged to explore, not exploit ("play games"), without any end goal in mind. This lets them figure out the world around them and how they can affect it.
As "exploitation" (competition) is a means to use specific knowledge (performance) to achieve goals (progress), it will tend to have winners & losers. "Exploration", otoh, is choosing among umpteen pathways to growth and learning. Of course, middle-aged folks can seldom afford to not be playing games, but perhaps in times of change, they need to be exploring like children again.
Also see this post on Ask HN: Has anyone here turned around their life in their 40s? about Pyscho-Cybernetics & achieving goals: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=34053801
Wow just a short reading of this wikipedia is fascinating. It reminds me of a thought I had years ago about what is lost with the introduction of abstracted currency (i.e. dollars). I assume this is an established concept, but when you barter with someone, besides the transaction, you learn about what that person needs. With abstracted currency, this information doesn't get transferred.
Anyway, seemed relevant to the wikipedia.
I'm 40, and I am not suicidal, but I've definitely felt those thoughts more than ever in my life in the past two years. I wake up two or three times every night from anxiety dreams. I began drinking too much, but luckily I was able to get out of that habit. Between (some of) the effects of AI on my career and hobbies, and the effects of politics on my country and even my own town, and many more problems, I can count more things I feel love and passion for that have been demeaned or destroyed in the past decade than such things that persist.
And this isn't even to mention money, and what my future is looking like, despite having every possible intrinsic and external advantage in The Greatest Country on Earth.
I've had one same-aged friend kill themselves, and I try to be attentive to the signals being put out by everybody in my circle.
Our brains are constantly bombarded with ever growing information and noise. With mindfulness, deliberate separation from most of the daily noise we can all zero in our own purposes in life. This hard, doesn’t happen overnight but with little steps and a lot of patience we will find that eventual purpose. And you find it hang on to it. I found reading the New Testament brings me instant peace when my brain is in turmoil. Hang in there strong with spiritual closeness, removing noise and avoiding those negative thoughts.
You know, I don't think Jesus cures depression
To each their own. I don’t think we should judge anyone on where they find their faith, that is, the drive to keep going on. Everyone is different.
Person A might find it in nature, camping, trailing, etc. Person B might pursue a more spiritual path, giving back to the community, being of service.
Whatever floats the boat man. Live and let live.
I don't know about Jesus curing depression, but it's certainly true that belief in Jesus has made many people feel better.
It's ironic that the "acktually.." atheist/anti-theist crowd don't do a modicum of research when it comes to this kind of stuff. It's pretty well-established in the literature that folks plugged into a religious community live better, happier, and healthier lives[1].
Millenial cynicism is so boring.
[1] https://pmc.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/articles/PMC5127763/
> folks plugged into a religious community live better, happier, and healthier lives
Could be:
> folks plugged into a community live better, happier, and healthier lives
Or even
> folks with a weekly routine in a third space live better, …
There’s nothing causational about the denomination.
> There’s nothing causational about the denomination.
You're right, I'm sure the people that are publishing these studies have never heard of "correlation is not causation."
Can’t wait for them to test why specific denominations have a positive causal impact on wellbeing over others. Mormons, Jehovas Witnesses, Southern Baptists, etc.
While we’re being snarky, should we talk about the people who are arbitrarily and capriciously removed from these communities during times when they need them most? Like women seeking divorce in abusive relationships while in a denomination that preaches absolute subservience to the male head of household?
... or people who attend religious services are less likely to self-report depression because of perceived weakness, shame, etc
> folks plugged into a community live better, happier, and healthier lives
It is this mainly. Community is the reason most people find happiness. Some people find it at church, some on a Sunday at a football game, some at their dnd game that’s being going on for years and some find it in their family. I am not particularly religious but I am 100% onboard the idea that community brings happiness. I find happiness in just having good neighbors.
That study you linked does not establish a causal relationship. It may simply be that the sort of person who is able to extract well-being from church is the sort of person more likely to actually attend church with any regularity. It likewise does not address the possibility that depression itself might make one want to stop attending church.
>Millenial cynicism is so boring
Yeah, it's always Millennials who are in the wrong. Fuck us, right? It's all good, we're used to being the scapegoats for society's problems.
I'm a millennial and I feel like nearly all the discourse about who is (generationally) responsible for society's problems is aimed at the boomers. And the zoomers to a lesser extent, though that seems more of a prophecy about how they're going to ruin society. Jabs aimed at us millennials tend to be that we're cringe (or boring), which I can accept.
In my opinion, this is a form of hatred.
teensy effect size according to some
https://www.tandfonline.com/doi/abs/10.1080/10508619.2020.17...
> Of eight R/S predictors that were distinguished, only participation in public religious activities and importance of religion were significantly related to mental health
Tell that to the gay kid who lived through god hates fags. Or the trans person today.
Speaking as a gay dude, it doesn't mean you have to follow a mainstream religion to find spirituality, especially one which tells you that you are an evil person because of who you are. Personally I've taken bits of various eastern religious beliefs which now form my 'spirituality'.
It's weird, its like there is some part of our mind that requires something spiritual to fill it, and has been that way every since recorded history. People have always looked for something higher than themselves, whether is be a god or gods, or the idea of nature or the universe, or any matter of similar ideas. And filling that part of our minds with a belief in something, seems to put the mind at ease in some ways. A lot of medical literature I've read includes 3 parts of yourself that you need to take care of: mind, body and spirit. So I really do believe there is something behind it.
Just so you know, that feeling of your brain requiring spirituality to fill it is by no means universal.
It mostly is. Just that "spiritual" doesn't automatically mean something mythical like God. It can be politics, astrology, social justice, philosophy, etc.
Something that we think is very important to us and the World and bigger than us.
That is a very odd definition of “spiritual”
How do you define spirituality such that it includes politics?
Have you not noticed the fervor with which acolytes of each 'side' preach the gospel according to their respective messiah? One can easily see similarities between sports and politics and you can't see those between religion and politics?
I see dogmatism, I don't see religion. They're not the same thing.
Otherwise, you could say my religion is BBQ because I'm always telling my friends about a smoke I just did.
We all see what we want to see I suppose. I am not buying this line of argumentation.
It's funny that exactly like those religious extremists and other extremists that associate any kind of queer person to the boogieman that tried to convert your kids and have depraved sex parades on the street, it's exactly the same attitude with people demonising any kind of religious person, as if all are the same. We all humans are the same, it's just who and what we hate and appreciate that differs.
What does this have to do with millennials?
He said something about moths and rust consuming matter and with that at the very least he pointed out quite clearly the source of our suffering in regards to the AI transformation
Not religious, but also not disputing that believers have lower rates of depression either.
Believing in a higher power has seemed to provide great comfort to a number of friends and family over the years. I went to a friend's father's funeral a while back, and I had to admit, the service, the way the community came together was moving, and it really made me question whether I should return to the church as an adult, even with my questions of faith.
The problem is that humans evolved to be religious, and you can't just ignore that and get rid of it in a generation or two. It is in our brains and we have to live with it somehow. So from that perspective ... maybe Jesus does cure depression.
Our brains are also wired to kill for survival, rape for reproduction.
Religion is a coping mechanism for some, although its trivial to ignore. Religion is more likely than not a con-artist trick, that has lived on for centuries.
Humans most certainly did not evolve to be religious. We evolved to look for and, if necessary (to our minds), invent meanings behind things which sometimes have truly no meaning at all, i.e. the existence of existence itself. We also evolved to be fearful of the unknown, e.g. the experience of death and afterward. It seems quite simple to see how those two things resulted in our eventual invention of religion, but we did not simply evolve to be religious per se.
I'm not saying that every possible path of evolution leads to religion, only that ours did.
By that logic, you may as well say evolution led to TikTok. "Religion taps into human psychology" seems more accurate.
But what does that rephrasing change about the overall argument?
The former phrasing has a sense of inevitability to it, for one. It masks the fact that people created systems to exploit weaknesses in human psychology. Evolution led to a bias toward unsubstantiated pattern recognition and simple explanations for complex systems, not organized religion.
The inevitability (or not) is not what I wanted to focus on.
The point was that religion has become a part of our brain. How this happened (evolution, perhaps by accident), was not the important bit.
If religion has become "a part of our brain" then so has slavery, rape and the divine right of kings, for the same reasons. Yet no one argues that we just "have to learn to live with" the latter.
It isn't evolution, at least not in any genetic sense, it's simply culture. People believe religion is an immutable fact of life and the only possible source of meaning and morality when their culture teaches them as much. But there are cultures where religion matters far less than it does in, say, the US, where people get along just fine.
Except some of us consider ourselves to be quite evolved, not religious, AND absent of depression. Maybe depression (or the lack thereof) has nothing to do with religion at all.
If you're trying to establish if X is a cure for Y, then looking at people who don't have Y will not tell you much.
Anti-religion aka the religion of Scienc(TM) is still a religion.
Just because you call something a religion doesn't mean it is. There is no such thing as "religion of science"
For some people, it is. There is a segment of non-religious people who do treat the current scientific consensus as gospel and moralize adherence with typical religious in-group/out-group dynamics, despite not really understanding or engaging with any of the actual material. I disagree that relying on scientific consensus is inherently religious, though.
Tell me, of these people who supposedly practice "Science as Religion," what are their rituals? What's their scripture? Their theology? Their religious doctrines? What exactly makes this a religion rather than people simply behaving dogmatically?
You've described people who uncritically accept authority, moralize disagreement, and engage in in-group/out-group behavior. None of those characteristics is unique to religion. You can find them in politics, sports fandom, nationalism, and virtually any ideological community.
Treating scientific consensus as authoritative isn't the same as treating it as sacred or infallible. Scientific consensus is provisional, evidence-based, and subject to revision. Someone can misunderstand that process or defer to it uncritically without turning science into a religion.
You're conflating dogmatism with religiosity. They're not synonyms. Calling something a religion because some adherents behave dogmatically strips the word "religion" of any meaningful distinction.
Excellent advice
> I found reading the New Testament brings me instant peace when my brain is in turmoil
I wonder if the Old Testament gives you the same effect
> I began drinking too much, but luckily I was able to get out of that habit.
Alcohol is incredibly dangerous after 40, particularly if you've got a history as a heavy drinker. I've had to cut back to virtually nothing as it's guaranteed to trigger anxiety and depressive episodes.
Almost all the premature deaths in my circle, including suicides, have been alcohol-linked.
Obviously, YMMV, everyone's different, but if anyone reading this thread is over 40, struggling, and still drinking regularly, taking a break can really help.
Well, not taking a break, but stopping.
I am very glad I ripped that bandaid off over a decade ago. But success for people with a genuine problem is stopping, not taking a break
I celebrated 20 years since my last drink on Monday of this week.
People who want to drink--should drink.
People who don't want to drink but find that they keep doing it anyway, might want to check out what AA has to offer. It worked for me when nothing else did.
Congrats!
Fair, stopping better. It's a tough thing for many to imagine though. It took a break for me to understand I needed to do more.
Yeah someone else above is talking about making friends irl is “easier said than done”
Yeah, it is. And quitting a substance (or in my case many) is also tough. It’s scary and isolating.
That said, I think modern people, especially those in the west where there is so much (often unappreciated) comfort and plenty, have become allergic to doing tough things. Comfort, like a crutch, has atrophied our capacity for discipline and determination because there is endless entertainment and consumerism to keep us warm and docile and distracted.
In my experience, tough things that require discipline and long term investment are the only things really worth pursuing in that, when I die, those are the only things I will look back on with a sense of pride and accomplishment.
I switched to NA beer so that when I did decide to “have a few” it would be a rare occasion. Then I realized that NA beer was doing it for me and I haven’t gone back. It’s not for everyone but it worked for me.
I do enjoy NAs too, and we are blessed with a booming market these days!
But I do know some alcoholics that say they can’t even taste the stuff or it will trigger them. So to each their own
I quit 2 years ago. The juice wasn't worth the squeeze. Sad, to think at one time I almost opened a brewery.
And it's bad for you, yes, and that's why I quit, it was fucking with my sleep horribly, but also it's such a drain on your finances today. And given the state of things today, I'm glad I quit when I did. Saving a grand a year isn't a lot but that money is much better off being spent in a different way.
I wanted to open a brewery too! I now realize it was probably just fuel for my addiction, though I do genuinely love the flavors of modern craft beers (which have come a long way). But not nearly as much as I love a stable life lol
I was homebrewing for years in the late 00s and early 10s. At the time I was living in Santa Barbara, and there was a great community there, the Santa Barbeerians, and it was a lot of fun. At the same time I was roasting my own coffee beans and really into coffee. My wife and I floated the idea of opening a place with another couple but it never panned out.
Anyway I don't disagree, in retrospect it was all a way to drink more beer in different styles than I could readily get from a store. It's easy to justify in the moment but having many gallons of beer around all of the time is dangerous...
I wonder if we ever talked to each other in online beer communities. I’d think I was talking to myself but for the fact that I grew up in a place way less attractive than SB lol
How does alcohole trigger anxiety and depressive episodes for you? When I drink I get calm. Did that change at some point for you? Like, instead of drinking with friends you used it alone in the dark or something?
Wondering if I need to look out for something...
AI hasn't made a dent in my enjoyment of my hobbies and tech (the opposite, now I have more toys to play with than ever), but politics? Oh man, politics becoming the new religion has absolutely ruined pretty much everything for me.
I don't believe in politics. For me left and right are all *the same*. Just a bunch of megalomaniacs wanting to hog power for themselves. This extremely hot take has made people call me more names and costed me more relationships than if I went out and started screaming slurs in a crowded street. Because I am a "fence sitter" or whatever.
And I just can't handle it anymore, I just went full recluse. I don't go into social media anymore, I don't talk to anyone at a personal level anymore. Outside of some github issues and some comments here, I don't touch socials anymore. I am just overwhelmed by the level of vitriol and hate the new internet is based on.
Same, in many senses. But you can’t fully detach from humanity without losing your own humanity. Forget socials, and pretty much all media consumption, but go talk to real people, make friends, find an human partner. Even raise a family.
Sadly I can't raise a family. This January I got a pretty bad brush with death and got diagnosed with something pretty bad and I don't have a lot left. After 5 high-risk surgeries (because of the medication making me bleed too much) I finally regained some autonomy and can move again, but I can't have kids. My bloodline ends with me, and it's better this way because this is hereditary and gets worse every generation. My kids would die at ~20 if lucky, according to the doctors.
Even knowing this, people around me still called me all sorts of things for not having strong opinions on random political things or wars. How can I worry about that when I am going to die soon anyway? Got enough in my plate to think about global politics.
Jeez, in so sorry to hear that. I personally know multiple people who’ve far exceeded their “you have X time to live”, but in any case live life as best you see fit for happiness and contentment. Spend time with people you love and ignore all the bullshit that stresses us out. Best of luck my friend
Sadly, all my loved ones are already gone from the same illness, so I'm afraid I can't take your advice. All I got left is a couple online friends, my job (of which I've been away for too long due to the surgeries...) and my computers. I'm trying to make the most of what time I got left doing coding and art, now that my hands kinda work again. I found a box of very cool quality markers when I could finally get out and been practicing with them. I was always a color pencil/watercolors guy, but this is pretty cool. Since I enjoy drawing robots and vehicles a lot I've been combining them with metallic markers for very cool effects. I am also learning how to do more physical electronics tinkering and getting better with a soldering iron at last, repairing old stuff and so.
I also enjoy the new wave of AI stuff. It took a while but I finally got a little robot buddy like in scifi when I was little. Full offline. It's kind of a dum-dum, but mostly works!
Unfortunately it's such a negative thing outside of places like HN that I can't share that joy with most people. Also a lot of people can't seem to wrap their head around an artist that enjoys AI, as I mentioned in another post in the thread. I have to shut up about it pretty much everywhere.
Anyway, I digress...thank you.
To me this sounds like a wonderful time to go meet your online buddies in person, if that’s within reach. If not, by all means lean on them for support and friendship. I’m sorry to hear you’ve been dealt such a rough hand.
"Go talk to real people" is easier said than done post-Covid. I'm in a European university city where even young people are complaining online of a dearth of opportunities for in-person socializing -- there is a good amount of cultural events and cafes to go out to every night, but it has become taboo to talk to strangers there even among young people, and a single middle-aged man's attempts to socialize anywhere would not be welcomed. Even people attending the remaining hobby meetups are finding merely practice of the hobby, but not any meaningful social contact alongside it.
Social media is poison, sure, but detaching from it doesn't mean you can get an IRL social life to replace it.
Talk to older people then. I am not “young” but I still find it easier to talk to people older than myself (retirees on up to senior geriatrics)
Encouraging people to procreate is absolutely wild to me. That's just adding fuel to the fire.
This is a bait comment because any push back will just re-affirm your stance and I don’t know if you’ll find much agreement here otherwise. Millions of people died in WWII defending against ideas that are actively being brought by a clear side.
FWIW it’s not that hard to be a fence sitter and not advertise it to everyone. It sounds like either you’re hanging with the wrong people, or you’re the problem. I guess go back to playing with your toys!
I know friends and family with many kinds of beliefs, we don’t rehash why they believe those things every time we see each other. Humans are complex /shrug
You just proved my point.
"This is a bait comment". Shame on you.
I voted you both up, because you're both right. Those who aren't dying before their time have an obligation to their future selves to make things better. Unfortunately it sounds as if you have a good excuse to begin letting go of worldly concerns, but the truth is, only the worst people benefit if the rest of us adopt an apolitical perspective.
See my other post in this thread, for example, replying to a Ukrainian who's finding that people he thought could be counted on can't be. As I suggested obliquely in that post, this is because one-third of our electorate is either brainwashed or malicious, one-third is willing to do what we can, and one-third can't be bothered to care either way.
I can respect this view point! I don’t really get fired up against fence sitters, I understand not wanting to be part of the mess. …but at the same time OP seems to have lost all social life and has become a recluse because of it? That is an interesting outcome and one that sounds to have more to it.
As I said, maybe I should be a fortune teller!
This is an unbelievably atrocious response. Where is your humanity?
I guess some explanation on why you think it’s an atrocious response would be a good start.
I don't know how sincere this comment is, but if there are others thinking this way, it's a mistake. Nihilism is a dead end (or political cynicism/fatalism, whatever you want to call it).
Social media is a veil of manipulation, engagement maximization, and bots. Do not misconstrue it as any kind of real or productive politics. There is a signal there amongst the noise, but it's hard to make sense of if you do not have a coherent world model or belief system. You have to learn to cut through it if you want to keep your sanity.
Read my other comment in the thread. Why would I post a non-sincere comment on this anyway? My belief is that all of us, no matter our gender, religion, age or social standing, are prey for the political and "elite" class. And not only we aren't holding them accountable, we are fighting their fights for them in several fields of our lives in form of "political discourse".
My country has a very serious housing crisis, both the left and the right are contributing to it because both parties have multiple people who are "serial landlords" with several properties, so they only make laws that benefit the landlord. This is a known fact and there are huge protests ongoing about it to the point emergency elections have been called.
Yet, saying this simple stance just as I did now, that both of them are guilty, will have people call you an "ultra" or call you a conspiracy theorist, that you are a fence sitter, that you don't know what you are talking about, and so and so on. Like you have some ulterior motive or are a paid shill from the other side or making the logic leap to thinking you support the far-right for not choosing one of the two existing "teams". Everything has gone crazy.
I think most folks are actually in the middle and generally agree. Anyone who thinks one of the us political parties is completely innocent is lying, either to you or themselves.
That being said, I think it's worth noticing if one party does more bad things than the other and I also think speaking up with your values is worth it and maybe even a duty we owe the people who built this country before us.
Either way, your first responsibility is your own mental health so you have full support from this internet stranger.
> Read my other comment in the thread. Why would I post a non-sincere comment on this anyway?
HN is social media, saner than most, but I still don't assume sincerity.
> Yet, saying this simple stance just as I did now, that both of them are guilty, will have people call you an "ultra" or call you a conspiracy theorist, that you are a fence sitter, that you don't know what you are talking about, and so and so on.
If you mean people online, then that's expected. It's what I meant by social media being unproductive. Hostility attracts engagement and makes it more visible.
National politics is heavily influenced by economic interests, including global capital. And as wealth concentrates so does political power. That doesn't mean ordinary citizens have no political agency though, don't underestimate the difference you can make in your local community.
Mostly online yes, but even offline people have been in a very strange edge lately. Like, if you don't take a stance to one of the two main political parties in my country, that means you support the third option which is a far-right party. If any of the members of that party bumped me on the street I wouldn't recognize them. Anyway, once that implication is on the table people start assuming (and saying behind your back) very ugly things about you very fast, which is why I started disengaging.
My heart is with the people, not the corporations or the elites. I just feel none of the choices right now is for the people. I don't understand why that would make me "hate LGBT people or migrants". It just doesn't make sense to me. The team mentality of the whole thing has gone too far in my opinion. And I don't understand why people get so heated up for groups that don't care about them at the end of the day.
I don't even think I'll be alive to see another election after the emergency one next month though. So it's too late for me to make any meaningful change. So I'm just trying to use my remaining time to leave a bit of a legacy as an artist and programmer. Even if I enjoy AI. One thing doesn't cancel the other. I do mostly analog art and even have been pretty excited to try new tools now that my hand works again (surgeries obliterated my hands for a while and they are permanently blue-ish and cold now, but I regained some mobility this month). AI is for me "that thing I wanted since I was a kid when scifi had AIs doing stuff".
In fact, that whole thing is also another can of worms. People can't seem to understand I can be an artist AND enjoy AI. The moment I mention AI people start assuming I flood the world with slop and want to destroy artists, then they ask for proof that I'm an artist, I show them my work (impossible for an AI to replicate because it's mostly analog), they go "but if you can draw like this why do you use AI!?? You should hate it because it's against you" and they can't conceive that for me it's just fun to tinker with it and test what it can do for fun. Like I should immediately take an anti-AI stance BECAUSE I am an artist. The AI is not replacing me because for me art is a form of expression and doing it is its own reward. It's just fun. Both things are fun to me. I don't see why they are exclusive.
It's like there's no room for human nuance and contradictions anymore. You have to be in a neat little box or else you are a bad person so it's right to fight you and hurt you. It's "justified", you know. Even if they are completely wrong, they already passed judgement.
>Nihilism is a dead end (or political cynicism/fatalism, whatever you want to call it).
Nihilism is a popular, vague pejorative today but philosophically it's a serious answer to exactly the manipulation, engagement-bait and juvenile techno-optimism of our age. Whenever you're at the end of some moral or social period active, not resentful or passive nihilism, is a palate cleanser and necessary condition for revaluation of all values.
The kind of middle aged men that tend to fall into despair or suicide in these times are usually people who rely on some identity provided to them that then crumbles. Job, money, house, status, 'how to be a man' etc. There's something they're supposed to be like and they're not, stability they took for granted just stops.
And we're in a period like this across many dimensions, political, technological etc. And if you want to be sane a dose of nihilism is fairly important so that you can go on and construct some sovereign answers to all these issues.
> not resentful or passive nihilism
To be more precise, it was passive nihilism I was criticizing. That's the sentiment I sensed in the original comment.
Isn't that existentialism rather than nihilism? Or perhaps you are mention it as a transition state before arriving at constructing your own meaning?
Idk. The thing with politics is I see the bat shit crazy stuff that social promotes then I see it almost verbatim when I’m out and about IRL.
Family members post absolute vitriol online. Then they want to make sure you read it and agree with them at thanksgiving dinner. Any type if civil discussion of differing views instantly devolves into name calling and insults.
Weird times.
Best case, it's like a cold war. That's what it feels like in my family (well, my extended family at least, my close relatives all roughly share the same outlook I have). They know I don't agree with them, I know it, we tiptoe around it and silently agree that we should just talk about anything but politics. Sometimes it's hard, but so far we seem to have settled on family being more important the winning a political battle.
> it's a mistake. Nihilism is a dead end (or political cynicism/fatalism, whatever you want to call it).
As someone deep in nihilism and political cynicism, I can concur, this is no real solution.
The problem is I don't believe leaning into that world is a solution either, and anyone who says otherwise, sounds like my boomer parents who have Fox news streaming on their 80" TV that they update every year, in their 4500 sqft home.
I mean this genuinely and not to stoke a fire, comments advocating for leaning into the political world really feel naive and perhaps generational. Most younger people have a damn near impossible time feeling anything other than dread and sadness when thinking about the state of politics.
I'd love to have a genuine reason to be hopeful, but regardless of which party you believe in, it feels like we're all circling the drain here.
I was deeply cynical about politics until I joined a party. The idiots hid when I was around. The boomers in the nomination commitee were throwing posts at me. It was surrealistic and nothing like I imagined. Then I realized something even worse. There are no cabal of idiots. The older generation is not holding on to power. (YMMV ofc). It is some sort of deeper systematic problem with disengagement. And the angry mob knocking on the door really are idiots.
You mean you joined the party leadership by going to meetings and such? I'm curious. Can you expand on what you mean by disengagement?
Yes. Straight up no roadblocks in two years. County level. I assumed I would have to fight tooth and nail for years and be manouvered out by some old guard all the time. It was nothing like I imagined.
Disengagment among voters and inactive party members towards active party members.
Trying to get engagement is like pulling teeth. You could be in a commitee deciding a thing, inviting the public to a meeting discussion how the thing should be done. Some of the few who show up complain that you are not changing the thing and just talk. Then you change the thing and suddenly, when it is too late to change the decision without a lot of hassle, there is way more discussion about the thing and complaints on how it is done, from people that are not aware of the trade offs or prior discussion or the whole picture.
Very frustrating. (Be aware of that the story is somewhat hyperbolic to make a point. Also, yes, Goomba fallacy).
I think the main problem is that way too few people are active in politics compared to way back. There are like no channels to reach out and too little every day discussions.
Yo I'm also strictly apolitical and never had an issue with relationships or social circles, I just tell everyone I meet that "I do not talk politics, because maintaining my mental health is a full time job without putting the weight of the entire country/world onto my shoulders in addition" and so far they've all understood. The radicals who wouldn't understand I just say goodbye to, but this hasn't happened yet.
For what it's worth I completely agree with you. Engaging in politics is a complete waste of time, unless you happen to have a platform with enough reach to influence a meaningful number of people. Unfortunately, almost all of the communication you will see comes from people with such a platform, and boy do they want to convince you to vote like them.
Once the political climate is polarized enough, choosing to not engage in the discussion about how evil the other team is will get you lumped right in, because if the other team really is evil and you don't care, then you must be pretty bad yourself.
The "Oh, but it's your civic duty to improve your community/state/nation (which obviously means voting the way I want you to, not the way the other half the country wants you to)" tries to frame political engagement as some moral good, but if they redirected the time and energy from political engagement to working at McDonalds and funding charity with the paycheck they would have 1000x the impact, even if you assume there is a Good and Evil team and they are on the Good team.
It’s a nice luxury to be able to ignore politics. There are people in some places who would be imprisoned or killed if the wrong political party came into power. A major political party in my country would love to find a way to deport half of my family if they could and split us up forever. I wish I could ignore politics and just stay neutral.
"Chi tace acconsente" (he who is silent says yes)
People often say this "I wish I could ignore politics, but if the other team wins it would be disastrous", but they rarely put their money where their mouth is. If someone truly believes that, you'd expect them to take actions that actually make an impact, working extra shifts to donate more, or volunteering with a party to help. Instead, everyone I've seen that says this just casts their own statistically insignificant vote and discusses politics with family and friends, resulting in no swayed votes but straining otherwise healthy relationships. Maybe you are the exception.
you may not care about politics but politics sure cares about you. i.e. those who don't pay attention don't get a say and only realize it matters when they're getting steamrolled. I agree with you about the fervor and all, that all sides bear some complicity in the current state of affairs, just not that both sides are the same - that feels like justification for not getting involved.
I’ve lost a lot of my spark in the past 6 years as well. So much has happened that it’s impossible to pinpoint one root cause, it’s all contributing.
Don’t know if you’re soliciting advice, but there are a few things that keep me feeling the way I did before: physical exercise, and live music. Unfortunately I find less time as the week goes by to dedicate to those things, but I at least know they’re there.
Therapeutic writing that out loud, in a way.
> I've lost a lot of my spark in the past 6 years as well.
I felt similarly and had a "crisis" point at the start of 2025. I realised that living a fulfilling life had to become my top priority, no matter how difficult or uncomfortable it may seem. Otherwise, I might not survive another 30 years.
Now I can see a bit of the mechanism behind the dimming of the spark. I had gradually conceded the direction of my life to external forces, and let anxiety and self-doubt drive my decisions. It's a great way to end up with a life that you don't want. I shudder to think of what it's like to do that for 20 years instead of 5.
Can you expand on what "living a fulfilling life" is for you?
Your post really resonates with me, but the rub is (at least for me) "living a fulfilling life" means other trade offs, and potential losses.
Maybe fulfilling to me is something that doesn't fit nicely in the box of traditional society... am I ready to give all that up?
Not to be a downer. It is therapeutic, and I exercise 5-6 times per week between strength and conditioning, but it's not enough. It's a short distraction, it helps me temporarily. The truth is there's something very wrong with the world today and the pressure we're all feeling, speaking personally here, leaves me feel like I'm ready to crack constantly. But I have a wife and kids and elderly parents, and they all depend on me so I need to keep holding it together. Somehow.
ive also been trying to find my mojo back especially the last few years.I do get major spurts of massive productivity and optimism like an unplanned incident that i try to analyze later to recapture but it crashes back into the usual with pessimism about the future. I've noticed publishing non-AI assisted writing (even without an audience) helps.
I'm 41. My youngest brother blew his brains out in July. My other brother has cut himself twice. I quit my job as an EMT because I'm in no mood to transport SI patients. I needed a job on short notice to keep making my mortgage payments, so now I'm breaking my body 50-60 hrs/wk pouring concrete with the Amish. And it doesn't even cover the bills.
I can't afford health insurance, let alone health care. 0 sick days, 0 vacation time, $0 leisure spending. Credit card debt ticks up each month. Retirement savings is a pipe dream. How could I conscionably attempt a family under these conditions? I'd never have time to be a part of it and would be plagued by the guilt of not being able to provide.
But hey, I'm told to feel lucky I managed to lock in a 30-year mortgage at 5.99%: If I'm diligent paying on it until I've got a foot in the grave, selling the house might pay for end-of-life care!
How were able to get out of the drinking habit? I have been drinking heavily on the days I work from home. Drinking really calms me down. I then watch Netflix just so I don’t think.
finally information is breaking out on whats happening to my lot - i am 49 had 10 yrs plus at faang early career, solid career progression later - cto for 2 series c startups 2 yr stint and i am not able to find anything 2 yrs and counting. this year is dead ~ cant even get a loop, my career is done for. From claude's launches in jan feb this year to oct world changed - now i am facing fact that i am forced to retire and will not find job i like - i am not fire type - i want to work - i still need some buffer for retirement that was to come from 5 yrs working and its gone. Every other person i know in similar boat says they are starting a startup - rarely i see one that is getting traction - most are just trying any random product - nothing unique or they are simply lost.
I turn 39 this year and am just finding more and more ways to become irrelevant. I can’t be the only one so these stats make sense to me. Fortunately, Australia has a good start on what mental health care should look like and its subsidised (or at least a few sessions are).
I was made redundant in August and despite being a 20 year career vet who has done many different langs, I still can’t find a new job.
My skills as a developer are no longer required because the all knowing robot can (apparently) do what I need to do. I’ve heard multiple companies now using it to ship stuff all the way into production without any human intervention at all. This feels to me like driving the car without holding onto the wheel.
The side hustle I had of writing books to teach people development is over — they can just ask the robot instead. I was writing a new book about how developers can train up others, but have put that on hold (due to losing my job which was that thing, and because of AI)
I honestly don’t know what I’m supposed to do here to provide for my family.
I've been through a 6 month long unemployment. Got let go from a company (along with the majority of the dev team) which picked up AI like a shiny object thinking it could do everything.
Then I got hired to a company which have been pushing AI 100% for like a year, not at the expense of headcount, but responsibly as the N+1th productivity increasing tool, like what it is.
It's a really nice environment where keeping and cultivating great talent is not just one of the primary marketing slogans on the hiring page, but it actually feels like it while on the job.
My talent is nowhere near yours, so don't lose hope, keep applying.
I think most white-collar people have similar feelings. I certainly am, and many dev-friends and coworkers have confided such to me.
My software skills are now irrelevant. I've accepted that the omniscience robot is a better engineer than me. No clue what I'm going to do next, but I have to figure it out fast once my job disappears.
I wanted a family, but I'm relieved that I don't have one now. I can't imagine the stress and pressure of that with how weird everything is now. I'm nearing the end of the timeline for that anyway, being in my late 30s. Probably a blessing in disguise.
I have a some good hobbies that keeps me on my toes (physically, mentally) and a full social and family life fortunately. That's what fills my cup. I'm not stoked about tech anymore anyway.
I have a hard time seeing how any other white-collar job can be as worried as software development. No other industry has the straight up replacement of their work, at a level, quality, and speed, that AI coding is. AI agents are literally better (when you factor time) than even some of the best developers I've known in my career. It's over.
Probably not exactly as worried, but given software development was the first industry seriously targeted by the labs, and given the mission of nearly every startup these days is "automate the entire workflow of X knowledge work role with AI", I can see why they would still find the near-term outlook bleak.
Have you used Claude to do system administration? Networking? It's definitely not just software guys that should be worried. And then there's management -- several layers of management can just go away.
While I applaud Australia's initiatives, I am becoming more and more convinced that a lot of people are already in (or heading towards) situations that the mental healthcare field can do very little, if anything, to improve.
Generally, very true in mental health, but moderately true for all areas of health: The idea “at least we have systems/doctors/drugs to help solve this if/when it becomes a problem” is a massive cognitohazard. You do not want to be on the other side of that fence, and belief in solutions there will slide you toward it quicker. Do everything you can to avoid it while you’re on the other side.
e.g. if you aren’t getting 10,000 steps every day for six months straight, you aren’t doing everything you can. It might not solve your problems, but you don’t know that, because you’ve never tried. If you aren’t quitting nicotine & alcohol, you aren’t doing everything you can. If you aren’t saying hi and being shot down by at least one stranger you find attractive every week, you aren’t doing everything you can.
I read your 'Leaving Tech' blog and it made me sad because it reflects a lot of what I'm feeling. Luckily I'm still employed, though it feels fairly tenuous at the moment
"This feels to me like driving the car without holding onto the wheel."
And this is why the whole thing will implode eventually. But there will be a period of pain until then.
>>"This feels to me like driving the car without holding onto the wheel."
>And this is why the whole thing will implode eventually. But there will be a period of pain until then.
Not if it is a self-driving car, which is increasingly becoming the case.
No it’s not.
Anthropic has more powerful models internally. Why aren’t they laying off staff and stopping hiring?
You guys clearly don’t understand the difference between a) writing code b) building business operations
Please show me the few-man team that are killing it with llm’s writing most of the code - it doesn’t exist! It’s fantasy land stuff.
If it is a self-driving car then it can do recursive self-improvement. Then we are either post-scarcity or it kills us all. Either way it wouldn't make sense to worry about employment.
Unless it doesn't kill us all, but post-scarcity is paired with hoarding of most resources by the select few that control a surveillance state and autonomous police force.
Sounds like your semi-rural location isn't helping. FWIW I have recruiters in Sydney in my network who are hitting me up on a semi-weekly basis because they are dry. I think the situation macro-economically is just really bad. Based on the stock market situation this week, I'd guess it's going to get a whole lot worse. First, be thankful you have a clean, safe place to live with a healthy family and just do stuff. So many people don't have those boxes checked and would kill for your position. Maybe try another money generating exhausting activity like woodwork or something. Worst case you do it for a bit and it's not for you. Generally, trades in rural areas in Australia are in constant demand. I knew a guy who used to work for flying doctors who got in to construction management and is happy as larry and making bank, so it does happen that transitioning in from non-tradie areas can be a winning move.
I’ve been a software developer for 20 years this year.
I quit my job in 2024 and moved country to be with someone I fell in love with.
Last time I’d interviewed it was 2020 - yeah, I had my pick of roles. This time after 5 applications a day every day for two months plus Leetcode and System Design practice round the clock I landed a dozen interviews and 2x offers.
I never thought I’d have to send 300+ job applications to get a job but my wife whilst sympathetic opened her job applications folder which had some 100+ applications in her field (manager in tourism sector) before she received a job offer.
It’s tough, software devs have never faced that level of friction before but it’s present in other industries.
A quote from Churchill which I carry with me is ‘if you’re going through hell, keep going’.
I don't want to be dismissive, so don't take this the wrong way.
Perhaps relying on skills as a developer was the problem? Society and the job market told you your skills were invaluable, but what did you actually do with them? What did you develop that was worthwhile? I don't know, but you should ask yourself that.
Much of the demand for developers was driven by a financial market that prized your skills, and many people bought into it. We are seeing now that such value was illusory.
How many new apps do we really need? How many new advertising algorithms are actually beneficial to society? How many of the ycombinator projects amount to more than a way to enrich autistic kids at the expense of everyone else?
You need to cast a wider net. There are a million jobs out there, but the problem is too many in the knowledge economy consider those jobs to be beneath them. Those in my peer and family circle who work blue collar jobs are much more content than those of us in the knowledge economy. Their expectations are such that they find satisfaction in their work, without warped or distorted expectations placed on them by their peers or themselves.
I solo founded and run a men's suicide prevention nonprofit organisation in the UK. It's early stage bootstrapped at the moment but I have long-term plans.
I've facilitated 200+ talking meetings at this organisation and another I was involved with previously. Anecdotally, the average attendee at the male-only meetings is ~45 years old, has some level of issues with personal and/or professional boundaries, has had suicidal ideation more than once, and has made plans for or attempted suicide more than once.
There is some form of survivorship bias in the above, but I get a lot of pride from our groups keeping men alive. We haven't lost anyone in 2 years.
I would imagine it feels like a huge responsibility, and also immensely fulfilling.
I couldn't imagine being brave enough for it, props to you for doing this!
It's a responsibility and fulfilling, extremes at both ends. The key thing is self-management, and knowing limits. I learned a lot from the ASIST course, and I retake the full two-day training every two years or so:
https://livingworks.net/training/livingworks-asist/
I have no connection or affiliation with the organisation beyond being a delegate.
Nice job. There's a group here in Australia who pass around crazy shirts with 'this is a conversation starter' aimed at men's suicide prevention. Neat marketing gimmick, maybe you can partner with them and use it. https://trademutt.com/pages/this-is-a-conversation-starter
Love it. Thank you.
Firstly can I give you a big hug for what you're doing.
Do you find that things such as the man-shed groups play an important part? I feel that life can be more isolating these days and where people move about more and life runs at a faster pace there is less time and fewer opportunities to fully relax and just "talk shit" with someone.
For me TV programmes like Mortimer & Whitehouse Gone Fishing are a reminder of how we should be spending some of our time.
>Firstly can I give you a big hug for what you're doing.
Always! Next time you're down in Cornwall, let me know!
>Do you find that things such as the man-shed groups play an important part?
Yes. There is a demographic of men who need to be solving/fixing/building, and that time (together) is therapeutic. My group offers a round table talking format, and it's built around common sense & lived experience with appropriate guard rails for group meetings. We also run walk & talk sessions where any man is welcome to join (with or without a well-behaved dog) for a stomp around.
This is where the 'straight ahead' conversations might happen, they're less confrontational than a round table thing. Both inside & outside events have the 'shoulder to shoulder' thing, that's a conscious decision.
>I feel that life can be more isolating these days and where people move about more and life runs at a faster pace there is less time and fewer opportunities to fully relax and just "talk shit" with someone.
100%. I am reminded of a comment from @kstenerud:
>"We may work online, but we exist in the flesh."
[https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=49863683]
>For me TV programmes like Mortimer & Whitehouse Gone Fishing are a reminder of how we should be spending some of our time.
Yes! New series soon, I'm told.
Thank you, great response.
> who need to be solving/fixing/building, and that time (together) is therapeutic
Yes, I think thinks like that not only keep the brain working but allows you to concentrate and switch off from everything else.
Keep it up, you're doing very important work that change lives.
* edit word.
To all those reading this thread, suicide isn't the answer. I know you've heard this and it's not special coming from me.
We all heard it's a permanent solution to a temporary problem and so many other quotes. I've lost a lot of people growing up to suicide and the impact it has on those who continue to live on that you love is traumatic.
The man who raised me like I was his son told my mother that he would never commit suicide. He had stage 4 cancer that eventually took his life on my 17th birthday. His reason for enduring through the pain was to teach me that suicide is never the answer because it hurts all those around you.
Although he passed away on my 17th birthday of his illness, he forever changed my life in so many ways. Each and every day I aim to be a better man because of how he loved me.
Please take a moment to utilize this time you have to change those around you. You don't need to create a massive company, be a CEO, have a career people admire, etc.. all you need to do is be someone that inspires others to improve like John did for me.
By the way, 2026 was the 30 year anniversary of his passing. I'm 47 years old and I still think of him almost daily.
That's a nice perspective, but sometimes life is just too much. Sometimes it is the solution
There is no solution to life.
Memento et mori.
Don't rush it.
You're (maybe) missing something and you know what it is but maybe you're afraid to ask. So tell me, what are you missing?
For me, it was some sort of acceptance from my parents. They never told me they were proud of me until I was close to doing it. Just happened to happen and put a new fresh wind into me.
Yeah I feel like a prisoner. I can’t end MY life because others will get hurt ?
Who said you can't? What I'm saying is people who look at suicide clearly need help with perspective and support.
If people who feel like terminating their life, got help, I strongly believe there was be a large drop in suicide.
You'll have elaborate on "life is just too much". That to me, opinion here, sounds like "I don't want to try". That's suitable for games, but I think life is something special.
What I really don't like is to hear people who aren't struggling with it, to call someone else's on-going struggle "a temporary problem".
Isn't that trivially true that all human problems are temporary?
I mean if you want to get all Nietzsche about it, then suicide is no longer a permanent solution.
I like Cioran's take that suicide is no solution because it always comes too late.
You really don't need to engage in the thread if it bothers you that much. Do keep in mind, maybe you're on the left side of the Dunning-Kruger effect.
I enjoy hackernud3s's contributions and am glad that they are listening to the silent upvotes instead of whatever the fuck it is that you're on about.
Let them eat cake
> You don't need to create a massive company, be a CEO, have a career people admire, etc..
I don’t give a fuck about any of that. I just wanted to code…
Likewise and this day an age you don't need much to do that.
Which can be resumed as "you are a slave and you must live and suffer because if not, the master will be sad"
Perhaps suicide is sometime the only sane answer in an insane world; Perhaps one must actually be sane to commit suicide (which is why there are so few of them, in the end);
Middle aged family men are kinda invisible. The government only sees them when it needs taxation. Kids only see them when they need money. His wife ignores him too, or rather, they ignore each other as roommates.
They can’t escape because all those legal and moral responsibilities. They have to wait patiently until retirement —- if their hearts allow them to live that long.
I'm pretty happy being invisible these days. I have to balance my business, family, friends, hobbies and interests (I particularly enjoy going to jamband concerts, cooking for my family, and I've really gotten into anime and manga lately). Sometimes I feel a little guilty being invisible because we kinda need to speak up as much as we can these days, but to me, invisibility is an asset that allows me to enjoy life.
I think that's a pretty good type of invisibility, congrats!
thats honestly kind of reassuring as a young person. i'm already invisible, so i don't have anything to fear as i age i suppose.
But you won’t have too much time for yourself and you might not like everything you have. Not saying that you will, but that’s a risk.
thats the current state anyways. i bet the risk is that it will weigh more as i get older.
Ooof, not even that old here and I'm feeling that. Things are pretty bad all over. Gets hard to want to be around. AI took my job recently and I've been moved back to helpdesk and just awaiting further layoffs. There's not much fun in intellectual pursuits any longer as LLMs have taken it all. All my fun hobby projects are just jokes now as anyone with money can easily outdo me with an LLM. Sad times...
I feel ya.
Most of my friends from high school and college are dead from random cancers, or drugs, or both.
I used to love skimming the new preprints on arXiv in the morning but now the signal is buried LLM drivel.
The one hobby I have that is kinda LLM-proof for now is speedrunning. Tool-assisted speedruns have always had their own categories for decades, and even if the LLMs or their descendants are used for routing or glitch hunting there’s still an element of human execution.
Happy to hear that. What are you speedrunning?
I like JRPGs from the early 2000s. I haven’t settled on one that I like enough to specialize in yet. It’s a bit of a time commitment, as you can imagine.
Why do you imagine yourself you be in competition with others while doing hobbies? Do you not find pleasure in the doing?
I'm sorry, but this is not realistic. Life is complex and involves many variables. You are right to engage with this question, but you are oversimplifying to the point of implying dishonesty, if I'm being frank (assuming you are not very neuro-divergent!).
Not the author you're replying to but I don't understand this reply at all? What variables? What oversimplifying?
They simply said
> Why do you imagine yourself you be in competition with others while doing hobbies? Do you not find pleasure in the doing?
Which... I don't understand how that is oversimplifying. If your hobby is golf are you unable to enjoy golf because you're not as good as the pros? If your hobby is music can you not enjoy it because you aren't going to win a Grammy award?
If you enjoy programming or working on something an LLM can do... can't you just enjoy doing it without an LLM? Heck there are plenty of people that will probably seek it out because of how many people hate AI being used in programming.
>I'm sorry, but this is not realistic.
It's realistic to want to be competitive. But as soon as your "hobby" becomes competitive, at least in this sense, it ceases to be a true hobby. It effectively just becomes work.
Nothin' wrong with the OP feeling disheartened by AI taking away his "hobby"/job, but AI will never be able to take away a "true" hobby because a "true" hobby is something where such external factors are irrelevant.
You'll notice that people who lift weights, run marathons, maintain a garden, tinker with models, etc., are effectively immune to AI. An AI won't lift your weights for you or tend to your garden for you. Maybe one day it could technically do that, but it doesn't matter, because you simply wouldn't have it do that for you. And it wouldn't matter if AI is doing that for others, because you're not competing with others. You're doing it for yourself.
There are your Paul Feyerabend s and there are your reddit atheists which the HN crowd tend towards, who simplify all complex relations in the world to Scientific, Testable, Linear logic. It may as well be as a result of the education system or the Industrial Revolution, but that is the prevalent logic in the world. Unfortunately we do not live in a time of philosophy anymore
Yes the Prussian system is responsible afaik
No pleasure really anymore, my hobbies were coding occasionally and there's no point to it. Anything I write will be outdone in 2 seconds by someone else.
Recently I started rebuilding a custom d3d9 hook for an old game and it was really fun and I planned to release it to the community. But before I could, many many others had an LLM do the same thing and my work was obsolete in a moment. There went that hobby... so now I'm hunting a new one...
I gain no joy from that, the joy I would have gained would be from other people using my work. Now they can produce my work without me entirely...
>Anything I write will be outdone in 2 seconds by someone else.
Then it's not really a hobby, no? Sounds more like a weird competition.
>But before I could, many many others had an LLM do the same thing and my work was obsolete in a moment. There went that hobby... so now I'm hunting a new one...
That sounds more like a job, at least with your perspective.
>I gain no joy from that, the joy I would have gained would be from other people using my work. Now they can produce my work without me entirely...
That's a job, man. Even if you're not getting paid money for it, you're not really doing it for yourself.
The point is a bit moot cause it's the same difference: you can get joy from a "job" and AI making that job obsolete sucks regardless. But if that's what you think a hobby is, then you don't have an actual hobby.
Go take up gardening.
This is hideous.
It's not. At all.
If someone likes digging tunnels by hand, that's a hobby.
If someone is mad that tunneling companies make it hard for them to find "hand tunneling work", that's not a hobby. That's someone thinking their work is owed attention.
Go find a hobby that you like doing for yourself. Why do you think so many engineers turn to woodworking? It isn't because they think they're going to compete with Ikea.
Rhetorical analogies are for people who can not, or will not, respect the subject on its own terms.
This is hideous.
You can keep saying it’s hideous to feel morally superior for yourself but it’s not working here. Rhetorical analogies? There is no rhetorical analogy here it’s a fair analogy. Plenty of people take up woodworking and it is definitely one of the most impractical hobbies out there. Most people do not think they are going to derive net positive value out of woodworking.
Respecting the subject on its own terms?
What happened to you, did you just come back from reeducation camp or something?
We've thoroughly pathologized this aspect throughout history, but doing things that earn you societal status and respect from others is a essential for having a healthy psyche for many, possibly most people, men especially struggle when they don't have avenues to demonstrate skill and competence.
Doing things to share them with others is pretty normal in a hobby. You might be baking for friends and family or sewing clothes or whatever, and want to enjoy the recipients appreciation for it. If people don't accept your gifts, the satisfaction of it will go away, and the same is often true of small coding projects I think.
Thank you for this post, enlightened being
Woefully out of touch and crass.
I wish I could take up gardening but alas I live in an apartment like most other people... I suppose you got me, I have no hobbies and it's just another reason to not want to be here. :) Everything is work and not much fun, is it?
This is a weird PoV - that a hobby is only a hobby if there is no community and you do it solo.
Sounds like you're saying tennis can't be a hobby. Nor videogames, nor making movies, writing stories, etc.
I mean, it'd be hilarious if it wasn't so tragic: hobbies via a community is still a hobby. There is no requirement that to qualify as a hobby it has to be completely audience-free.
>that a hobby is only a hobby if there is no community and you do it solo
Didn't say that.
>Sounds like you're saying tennis can't be a hobby. Nor videogames, nor making movies, writing stories, etc.
Nope, those are not conclusions you can draw from what I said.
>hobbies via a community is still a hobby
Yup, don't disagree with that.
>There is no requirement that to qualify as a hobby it has to be completely audience-free.
Never said that.
What I did say as that producing a product which is meant to be consumed by others and which offers you no joy if it isn't consumed isn't a hobby- it's a job. Money doesn't need to be exchanged for it to be a profit-seeking activity. And to be clear: I'm not saying there's anything wrong with that. But what I am saying is that, fundamentally, AI can't make a proper hobby obsolete.
The OP is disheartened because his "hobby" is no longer relevant because AI can do his hobby better than him. Just take a step back and think about that: does it make any sense? Can you think of a reasonable example of a hobby where this dynamic can ever occur?
Like, AI has gotten pretty good at music. Does that mean everybody who was in a band for the fun of it all disbanded because AI can make music better than them? Of course not; they still enjoy making music. Now, a band who is trying to make money off of their efforts may be facing a different reality: if people are able to generate better music than what they can produce for way cheaper, then staying in a band for profit is a hard sell. But note that in both instances, these people (who are clearly operating within a community) are doing the same exact activity, but one set of people are doing it as a hobby while the other is doing it as a job.
And again, to be clear: I'm not saying the OP's feelings aren't valid. They wanted to produce something that others would find valuable, and AI made their efforts obsolete. That sucks, and they're clearly not alone. What I'm disagreeing with is the notion that that is a hobby. And that's an important distinction, because the OP is claiming they don't have a hobby anymore and I'm claiming they never did. They should have a hobby- a proper hobby- because it's important for humans to have hobbies for their own well being.
I see what you're saying but I don't fully agree. Art is the obvious counterexample, like the poetry circles of old. The hobby was writing and sharing your poetry with peers. If no one was reading it, there would be much less joy in the production. That doesn't make it a job, it just makes it a social hobby.
The thing with that poster is that the output is not wholly art but also utility, so the AI could fully subsume that thing, if the consumers only care for the utility part. And software in general, qua art, is not an art that anyone but the author consumes, except for video games. So you're kind of right but also I think OP was using software as an artistic outlet through a utility output, which was neither a job nor is his current despair unfounded.
OP if you want to keep writing software for others you have to abandon the utility function and make art, such as games. That will fix your issue. And no, AI cannot make games as good as a human can.
There are hobbies that are heavily social.. I don't know what kind of maniac would make videogames purely for themselves
Imagine an apocalyptic zombie world, and what the last remaining man seek to do is... make video games for himself
> What I did say as that producing a product which is meant to be consumed by others and which offers you no joy if it isn't consumed isn't a hobby- it's a job.
You're literally saying the same thing again - that $FOO isn't a hobby if it needs an audience.
And, it's still wrong - there are hobbies that require an audience, and they're still hobbies.
If their hobby was contributing through code and now their contributions are worthless, they have lost a hobby.
There is nothing wrong with admitting that a (small) part of a hobby is getting recognition from your peers.
I’m just happy that, for now, AI can hold a soldering iron or operate a multimeter.
As for gardening: the town where I grew up has these plots of land for vegetable gardens There’s a long waiting list to get one. You should see how the plot holders compete over who has the best vegetable beds.
A hobby is something you do for yourself. Whether it's code, or painting, or woodworking.... you don't care if someone is better or faster than you. Unless you really see the hobby as a potential business, in which case you might want to reevaluate because with LLMs it's possible for an individual to do more by himself than ever before.
That's silly. Why can't a hobby be something you want to show others and receive acknowledgement and validation from?
Maybe but any time you start depending on "validation" from other people you're setting yourself up for disappointment. Just be yourself.
You can do a hobby for any reason. It doesnt have to be for yourself. He could enjoy programming but also enjoy contributing to the wider open source community. So it makes sense to feel bad when he sees another project popup and invalidate his work. If it was another person who'd worked hard and thought about the project he could at least take solace in chatting about their solutions but with AI its nothing. It just solves the problem and there is little to be gained from it.
Well, some hobbies are fun because you're doing something no one else has done before, or which is challenging to accomplish without a lot of investment in time and growing in personal skill. A lot of hobbies are fun because of the competition and because you get to be at the forefront of something. It's fun because we're all limited in our time and energy and choosing to spend time on something means you can do things that someone else who doesn't spend time on it can't. That feels good.
People who were in the demoscene took joy in learning how to make a computer do things no one had done before and push the hardware to its limits. That's not as meaningful if someone can achieve the same thing by prompting an LLM.
A lot of hobbies are fun because of the human challenge in creating the output and knowing it was only achievable because someone had to take time to create it. Having an LLM accomplish the same thing absolutely devalues the fun in the hobby. Hobbies aren't 100% just about accomplishing something for yourself, even though if you sway to much into doing it for validation or to compete with others it can lead to burnout and lack of enjoyment.
you weren’t competitive or pushing the limits of anything if llms arrived and suddenly you weren’t pushing the limits with it
I can lift weights on a barbell that are pretty good for a person my age, as a result of several years of regular training.
A person with a forklift can lift a lot more weight. Why does that change how I feel about what I can do unassisted?
That's true but the point of working out for regular people is to benefit their body, look good, feel good and have that strength vs. the average person who doesn't work out, not so much to be useful lifting heavy objects.
To your point, a lot of hobbies are about creating something that wasn't possible before without the investment of time, which is one reason it's rewarding. If people could just take a pill to get muscles to skip all the training, I'm sure a lot of people who put in time to train regularly would feel cheated out of their accomplishment, especially if nobody could tell if they did it manually or with a pill and if everybody started to have the same musculature with no effort.
Well as it would so happen, they sort of can. There are lifters and bodybuilders in any gym that are taking steroids. Do they still have to do work, yes, but they can achieve results that are not possible for a "natty" lifter. Doesn't affect how I feel about what I can do, nor do I feel cheated, because I really am only competing with myself.
Many hobbies are collective endeavors or a way of providing something useful to other people.
Ah, well I do nothing for myself sir. I work most days of the week and time off is limited. My company doesn't really do vacations. I haven't had one in at least 3 years and hopefully I'll have the PTO soon but never the money!
Do you not see a benefit in coding for the mental exercise and challenge?
Most hobbies are impractical... Machines can produce clothes much faster than a knitter, no chess player will beat the best computers, a boat can bring more fish to port in one trip than you can in a year, etc.
Actually much of the work to produce your clothes is done by hand because mechanizing it makes no economic sense when you can pay someone in Bangladesh next to nothing to do it. But regarding the other point, that has put people off things too -- Lee Sedol famously quit playing go after losing to Alpha Go, because he reasoned there was really no point when no matter how good he got he'd never beat the machine.
It takes a certail level of autism to be a coder because you enjoy it. Sadly many people went into this industry for the money and are now moving on because of AI. I say good riddance because when the AI bubble inevitably bursts, coding will be just us nerds again
> good riddance because when the AI bubble inevitably bursts, coding will be just us nerds again
Not sure what you mean by AI bubble bursting, but there is no way this genie goes back into the lamp. We now have Opus 4.6 level open models already and these are newer coming away, and soon we will have Fable level open models too. So even if all the frontier labs imploded financially today the LLMs are not going away.
Coding will never be the same as before, the sooner everyone accepts this the better.
Agree, we are not far off having open models that are superior to human coding ability. I’m sure this curve levels off sometime, but not before we’re superseded. Best to find peace with that and adapt.
Don't know why you're being downvoted, its pretty clear that you're right
The genie isn't going back. It will crash and burn the entire economy with it. AI hasn't significantly improved since gpt3.5 and everyone who claims otherwise is lying and/or retarded
Try see if you can find some physical hobby that has nothing to do with computers.
Mine is gardening. With relatively little effort, I can grow a decent amount of foods, much of it interesting varieties that are not grown commercially anywhere. I really doubt that we're going to see affordable humanoid robots out-competing me in this hobby any time soon.
> and there's no point to it. Anything I write will be outdone in 2 seconds by someone else.
That's OK, you don't have to be the best at any one thing. The important thing about any hobby, be it programming, skateboarding, or playing the piano, is that you feel personal satisfaction in doing it, not in the reactions of people to your work. Your enjoyment of a hobby should never be based on whether or not people like it, or even whether or not they want to use the thing you created. If you feel that a project that you are working on could be summed up in a single prompt that can be given to an LLM, then your job is not to work on the project directly, but rather to find what makes what you are doing unique. It doesn't even have to be technically interesting or bring any new ideas to the table, just the fact that somebody has put in effort into making something (regardless of completion or quality) gives it value.
Hey maybe publish it anyway. There are still some of us who are specifically looking for human-made things.
I don't know if it's common but I generally don't like to be bad at my hobbies. I like it when I can do things well. I've been learning the piano recently and striving to play more difficult songs is what makes it fun.
Sure. But AI doesn't make you bad at hobbies. It just makes others better at it, and even that is a stretch.
>I've been learning the piano recently and striving to play more difficult songs is what makes it fun.
And are you going to give up learning piano because now AI can just generate piano music better than anything you can ever produce? No? Then what you're doing is a proper hobby, which contrasts with the OP who feels their efforts are no worthless because AI can just do it better. That's not really a hobby; it's a job.
Not liking being bad at your hobbies is much different than not finding joy in them because people do them better than you. I work harder to be a better cook, it doesn't mean I'm in competition with people who cook better.
And how would you feel when whenever you cooked something for your friends they would turn around and just have the replicator make their favorite dish compared to yours? Humans are inherently social animals so if the social aspect of your hobby (which almost all hobbies have to some extend) suffers then the hobby suffers.
I would get better friends.
How did AI make you "bad" at your hobbies?
(Apologies if I'm missing your point)
Hmm.. I meant to make my point in isolation from LLMs. I definitely don't feel that way about learning music.
I do kind of understand it when it comes to programming, though. Hobby-like side projects often felt like they had some utility down the line, even if not directly applied. It's fun to show others what you've accomplished, to show off, maybe land a job from being noticed, etc.
I keep wanting to say the same thing. In fact, how other people describe hobbies is why I don't like the term hobbies.
I think music is a good example of sometimes you need to not have fun to have fun. Practice isn't really fun, but if you can put up with it you can have a lot of fun. So you can say that the not fun parts are part of the fun parts because it's what gives you the payoff. But when people then go and send you a Suno generated song, and say it's better than yours, it is them devaluing the "not fun" parts you had to put up with. I've had people do similar things to code projects I've done. It's a real buzz kill.
I also really value when musicians critique my songs, even when I feel defensive about it. Because then it's not about them devaluing my time, it's about them helping me grow, and they know how it feels to go through that process.
Most people find joy in doing work that's useful to others.
> All my fun hobby projects are just jokes
I exercise/lift weights, and you should too. My reps/effort/weight/PRs are a joke. I'm ~50% percentile on strengthlevel.com despite really fucking trying for ~6yrs now.
Many people are better than me at the EXACT SAME THING that I'm trying, at my bodyweight/age/sex. It doesn't discourage me. There is always room to improve. I track every workout, go to RPE 8-9, and try to do progressive overload. Seeing the numbers go up helps. I know it won't continue into infinity, especially as the decades go on... but yknow, I'm building a mentality here, not just a body. And when the weights go down, I'll be in the correct mental space for it.
I _loathe_ every. single. minute. of weightlifting. I'd rather be doing ANYTHING else. But I do it anyway. I think it teaches me things about life.
The only true goal is to grow and be better than yesterday. Effort is the reward.
Hear hear! It took me a bit but I've reached the point where I'm enjoying just "growing". I think we grew up in a world that molded us to compete, and to judge ourselves based on others, but I think with AI we're going to reach a point where our hobbies are going to be just seeing what we can accomplish for ourselves.
It helps to know how achy the body gets without it. In my case, the back pain I had from desk work is entirely gone now. If you focus on the form rather than reps and getting through it, paired with some good music, you can reach a focus state. There are off days of course, but I'm surprised that I enjoy it much more than I used to, where my motivation dropped off quickly due to being externally motivated (visible gains). Now it's kind of cool to just see your ability change over time, better balance, capability to do more advanced exercises, etc.
Hehe yeah. Perhaps I exaggerate with "I _loathe_ every. single. minute. of weightlifting." More precisely, I never _look forward_ to a workout.
I don't hate every squat. In fact, it's (I can't believe I'm saying this) somewhat satisfying in the moment whenever I do decide to go RIR=0. I'm wiped, but like, in a "hell yeah I did that" way.
But starting a session? I'm still as reticent as I was on day 1 lol. Maybe someday I'll pick up a sport or something as the others suggest, but I love programming too much to pick up other hobbies >_>
50th percentile on there is pretty strong! I've also lifted for around six years and I'm very light so my raw numbers are terrible but I'm still proud of them
Try doing some sports as well, I do weightlifting, but I do bouldering as well with friends, it is not only fun it also develops your strength in a kind of complementary way to lifting (also increases you stats on balance and other related stuff)
I have multiple herniated discs in my back so working out isn't possible. The V.A. wouldn't help with it either... But thanks for the suggestion! I'll be going the way of the people in the article so ya'll enjoy what you got! Many of us have nothing. :)
Perhaps my advice was too narrow/specific to my situation. If you can't deadlift, then don't. But there are many other things you can do, as the other commenters have suggested.
But if you're in the mentality of _not wanting_ to have anything, then all the advice in the world will bounce off you.
My suggestion, then, is to work on that mentality. Do something to get you anything, to get you out of that "Many of us have nothing" mindset. Build momentum. Physically doing something is often what it takes to break a mental barrier. The mind spirals and digs a hole, especially at night. But you get to participate in life/society/people during the day, which is why doing bodily things affects the mind and can break its loops.
You won't "win" on the first attempt. But you'll make progress. And the real win-condition is to keep playing.
The first step is always the hardest. I wish you the best.
You can't do any exercise due to the condition? No possible entry point at all? That honestly sounds incompatible with daily life.
Not everyone needs to rip barbells off the floor, there's infinite ways of doing resistance training; whatever you can manage is likely to help your symptoms.
> I'm ~50% percentile on strengthlevel.com
That's not the population. It is the average among other weightlifters which is where you would expect to be. Most of the population can't do a pull up.
This is a good post. Low ego. Regarding strength relative to others, don't beat up yourself too much about that rating. It's probably mostly genetics. Just do the best that you can do. I checked myself. I am in the bottom quartile. Horrible really, but I don't care. I can see and feel the difference from regular weight training.
Two questions: (1) Why do you loathe weightlifting? Is it painful, boring, etc.?
(2) If you dislike it so much, how do you find the motivation to continue? Personally, if my motivation is low to do a particular exercise (lift or cardio), I burnout quickly.
1) Opportunity cost mostly. I suffer from a _debilitating_ case of zero-sum thinking. "If I'm doing X, I'm not doing Y." Weightlifting isn't (overly) boring/painful; I'd just much rather be programming, by far my favorite activity. It's uncomfortable, but my physical pain tolerance is fairly high. Boring is solved by having a podcast/audiobook going, but for the "big lifts" I prefer silence to focus.
2) I don't use motivation or discipline. I use habit. I'm fairly busy, so my mantra is "bias towards action". I could sit there and stew about how much I hate the upcoming workout... or I can wake up, do my morning routine to an audiobook/podcast, eat breakfast while happily programming, NOT thinking about the day's workout, then transition sharply into it. When it's time, I just fucking do it. It's like flossing. I don't even have it on a schedule, because I don't want to think about "gotta start at X time". It starts when I reach a natural stopping point shortly after breakfast, whenever that is. I have literally never missed a workout in years so _something's_ working. (To be clear, there are obvious exceptions for travel/holidays/etc, I'm talking missing a workout due to a lack of "character".)
It helps that my gym is literally in the same room as my devbox. I launch a Claude prompt/whatever, do a set, repeat. Instead of doomscrolling between sessions, I bias towards action. I keep myself too busy to think about how much I don't want to exercise. The only time I let myself think about "god I hate this" is when I'm seconds from psyching myself up for a big lift. I know that if I let myself, I'll just stew and stew and grumble and bitch and make excuses. So I don't give myself that mental space. There's virtually 0 time between my favorite activity, then context switching to "alright let's get this". No space for the "ulgh" emotion to creep in.
To use an MCU Avenger's analogy, I'm _always_ angry. I'm always hate exercise. But I box it with what I love (programming), so I switch back and forth with zero time for the emotion to permeate. For a moment I'm a normal happy programmer, then seconds later I stand up, take a breath, and go Hulk mode.
Is that discipline? IDK. It doesn't feel like I'm bare-knuckle-holding-on-perserevering-despite-all-odds. I just don't mentallay dwell on it, and when my non-vibed custom exercise tracker beeps (it predates LLMs), saying it's been 3-4 minutes and I need to do the next set, I happily ignore it, finish my thought/prompt, then do the damned lift.
---
Negativity over, my favorite exercise is Zone 2 because the inclined treadmill is at my standing desk and I can happily work while being in The Zone (in both senses). Zone 2 is the best. A cheap $50 Craigslist treadmill + standing desk will burn an absolute fuckton of calories once you figure out how to walk (really its more a march) and type at the same time. Honestly I could (and have) Zone 2ed for up to 3hrs/day for weeks at a time. I reduced that because I got tired of eating so much food lol. Zone 2 is the best.
Then there's the weekly Nordic 4 by 4 which I apply the weightliftng mentality to.
6 years of on-and-off trying and I could only get to p50 squat, and even being able to do that feels like a serious accomplishment. ... I should really get back into it huh
I feel like so many devs forget:
1. How utterly dogshit the vast majority of code is.
2. How utterly dogshit some of the most important or famous products and services are under the hood.
So what if LLMs can do something better? Our entire field and industry has been built on 'good enough'. God knows how many programming 'masterpieces' are on Github with 0 stars and 0 users.
I am more excited about programming by hand now more than ever. While I do not know what the future has in store for us in terms of careers, I still think I will always program by hand for fun just because I enjoy the feel of the flow-state/getting lost in something.
might be a good chance to sit with yourself and understand what you want to do in this life, we often think there is only one path in life and seek success as defined by society. Most of us neglect ourselves way too much, thinking we're seeking the right thing. It's a problem if we can only find joy in life in trivial things like work or even hobbies. It means we might be disconnected from ourselves. Also If you feel you need professional help you absolutely should seek it. Healing in this toxic society does take a lot of time and professional help can be really good sometimes.
I would have guessed middle-aged men and women, not just men. I think the reason is being the sandwiched generation.
Most of us had/are having kids late. Now our parents are old/getting old and in need of our support. Along with that, parenting expectations have never been higher. So between shuttling kids from one thing to another all week, and taking parents to medical and other appointments, there isn’t much time or energy left to enjoy anything. It’s exhausting.
Combine that with someone already depressed, and any unfortunate trigger could push them over the edge. It’s partly anecdotal and some of what I’ve observed.
Thanks for this comment, because I think it's probably the only comment I've read where the hypothesis at least matches what is seen in the graph in the article, as it's really only men ages 45-64 who have seen a recent rise. Rates for younger men 25-44 have held steady for about the past 20 years and are significantly down since the mid 90s and early 00s. And yes, this is an all time high for men 45-64, but that's following a large dip for this age group around 95-2005, and the current rate is only slightly above where it was in 1980. And rates are significantly down compared to rates 30 years ago for men older than 65.
>I think the reason is being the sandwiched generation.
I agree, while most indicators should point to our lives being good overall, Millennials truly got screwed by their Boomer parent antics.
I feel like in a lot of important things, we suddenly went from being too young to being too old. Now we have responsibilities, heavier than our previous generation, but mostly lacked the support to build a stable foundation that can help taking care of those things.
It won't be as bad for GenZ/Alpha because Millenial parents are much more empathetic and supportive of their kids. Also, Boomers take care of their grandkids much more than their own kids, and also the Great Wealth Transfer will skip most Milennials and land directly over GenZ/Alpha.
I am overall optimistic on the outcome of AI, I think Alpha gen will live in a time of abundance and great opportunities. So, yeah, we were the shit gen between two great eras.
1: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Great_Wealth_Transfer
The world as we know it will end by the time GenZ/Alpha are "in charge", they will never get the opportunity to say anything
As we speak, kids have been rapped by covid, lockdowns, meaningless studies, now jobless, apparently futureless and meaningless; That's 5 criticals years of their lives that is lost forever and that this generation will never recover from;
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_dates_predicted_for_ap...
"But this time it will be over FOR REAL!"
Exactly !
Seriously: one shall not confuse "end of the world" with "end of our world" nor with "end of a world"
> Great Wealth Transfer will skip most Milennials and land directly over GenZ/Alpha.
It appears the transfer is not to their kids or even grandkids. It's going to rich kids and grandkids of healthcare executives. Healthcare and insurance should be a nonprofit service of the government.
Crazy that medical issues can bankrupt an ever larger share of the population at any moment.
Here's a wealth graphic that's novel (bottom up scrolling): https://dreamagainusa.org/
If my kids feel they owe me or are responsible for my elder years then I've failed as a parent. My children didn't choose to be born.
That's why we invented social safety nets.
Now parenting expectations may be sky high. That doesn't mean we have to be consumed by them.
The things that motive me to stick around are holding the people ruining this world to account, documenting it and trying to thwart their efforts, a curiosity in seeing just how bad the climate crisis gets (how do we react, can it wake us from our stupor), and a desire to learn and help others (whether volunteering or just life advice). An absurdist lens helps provide some levity and not take things so seriously.
I had to step back from my career to focus on a mobility issue and at this point I don't know if the job path will continue to be there or even if I care. I'm focusing on small pleasures for now - cup of tea, exercise, peace and quiet. Music and film help provide a sense of meaning and catharsis.
I'm 40 and am accepting I will be single forever. I'm in shape / constantly lifting weights, dress well, work hard on maintaining a good attitude, and am financially stable etc. But not a great face, and extremely skinny (Think Oppenheimer or Bin Laden), am not funny or charismatic, and am not into dogs. Dating is a kick in the butt. Women don't "Feel the spark"
I heard that before when I just started dating. I would say don't worry about the outcome (especially pertaining to one person - you know close to nothing about them early on anyway), just try to connect with people. In my case, it would've helped calm my nerves, which were a hindrance. I've been with my partner for 8 years. A given outcome is never preordained and you don't need everyone to like you, just the one that you click with if you don't let rejection discourage you.
being funny and charismatic are something it is possible to practice, same as lifting weights. From what you say, sounds like a high leverage thing to look into
Just do other things you like and don't worry about women. Relationships bring heartache and grief a good percentatge of the time anyway. Being engaged in things you like doing will bring you into contact with others and friendships or more may develop. But don't do them with that expectation.
If you don't know what to do, try to get involved with helping others in some way. It can be rewarding and give you a broader perspective on life.
> Just do other things you like and don't worry about women. Relationships bring heartache and grief a good percentatge of the time anyway. Being engaged in things you like doing will bring you into contact with others and friendships or more may develop. But don't do them with that expectation.
I can confirm that this is how I am generally happy in life as a single. Underrated advice.
> Just do other things you like and don't worry about women.
Just want to pile on here and say that this is absolutely crucial, both for your chances of eventually finding someone and if not that, for your own sanity.
1. if you go into activities with the ulterior motive of meeting someone, you're not going to be satisfied by the activity itself which will cause resentment.
2. people can sense when your heart isn't really into what you're doing, and this will defeat your purpose entirely causing #1
You really have to accept that you may never find someone to properly get into this mindset though, and that's really hard. But it's a choice and I'm convinced that it's the correct one.
> You really have to accept that you may never find someone to properly get into this mindset though
I think this is only because the bulk of the advice in this area is to tell men to become more attractive (cf. "looksmaxxing"), change hobbies, attitudes, etc. That, or resenting women. Most would rather live on hope than fundamentally change their outlook.
>> Dating is a kick in the butt
DON'T DO ONLINE DATING. Online dating has wrecked mating except for the most attractive 5%. Online dating is mostly a looks competition as first step. And you are saying you don't have the looks to win that game, so you need to play a different type of mating game.
Go to meetups instead via meetup.com and also look for local group activities happening on EventBrite - don't make finding a partner the focus or even the objective - go to a ton of meetups doing the things you love doing.
People form relationships doing common interests and having shared experiences. Have shared experiences with people and take finding a partner off the agenda - just enjoy the company of others. You never know what might happen but don't go looking for it.
I can tell you this for sure - many women are looking for a partner of character - someone kind who actually wishes to engage in relationship - a genuine person - and if time is taken to form relationship well in advance of the "will you be my girlfriend" pressure, then how you look is very often just not an issue. Have you noticed how when you get to know someone you see their character as much as their outward appearance? You might need to let people learn who you are gently and over time.
As for being charismatic or funny, as Oscar Wilde said: Be yourself - everyone else is taken.
This is excellent advice.
The best thing you do is to just grow your network until you find someone you like.
Whenever I go out, I always collect phone numbers and contacts if I can.
Before you know it, you have 100s of people on your phone. Befriending women is also excellent, they can introduce you to other women if they feel like you are worthy!
I have a number of family and friends who met online through video games or through online matchmaking websites (and one even through a dating app, starts with an H).
Successful, long term, loving and happy relationships. Not top 5% most attractive people. Mostly nerds, some overweight, some not.
A helpful thought for me was that literally everyone could reject you, except one person, and that's all you need is just that one person. Also along with that principle, maybe 99% of people actually aren't a good match for me, so if I mostly don't "click" with other people, that's totally fine — I don't know if I would want to be with 99% of possible people myself even if they were interested in me. It's just about finding the right kind of person that's similar to you. People with unique attributes may find someone else with the same unique attributes, or the other person may possess unique attributes that might somehow be a good fit for your unique attributes.
I am funny and at least somewhat charismatic but I'm gay and gay dating is simply broken. Both online and physical places focus on quick, cheap, sexual encounters. Meeting dudes outside of gay spaces results in max 5% chance that dude is also gay, which is a pathetic thing to be working with. I'm really not convinced that this life is worth living.
The most terrifying realization is that I've already spent pretty much half of my life yearning for love and not getting it. Even if I magically get married soon, it'll feel like a consolation prize.
That is a great anecdote/perspective to hear, although depressing. My working model was that gay dating is completely different from straight dating; the dynamics which I lament don't apply, but... different from a bad scenario doesn't mean a good one, which I think is going on!
How are you extremely skinny? Do you have a digestive issue or something?
I struggled with weight gain for many years due to crippling IBS but I found some relief while bulking from a certain probiotic. (Got lucky - dozens of things I tried including fodmap, etc. never worked. That said, the probiotic only helps - not solves... and doesn't solve my absorption issues)
Surgery, steroids, and a serious bulk are in order if you're serious.
Great question! No medically diagosed/diagnosable condition for better or for worse; someone's got to represent the 3σ end of the normal distribution right?
I can make the pounds go up or down in a few weeks by eating more or less, but it goes mostly to the gut (Skinny fat = probably the worst look), and just enough to pad the arm muscles so it looks like I've never been to the gym in my life! Lately have just been embracing it and staying lean (Looks like 12% maybe?) while working out as much as I can stand.
I was about to do the steroids... (low dose test) I suspect that would genuinely fix it. But when I got the blood test back, test was smack in the middle of the normal range! So would have to shop around a bit, and trying not to lose my hair. But may still do it. A bulk counter-intuitively is not the move because it would just put me back in skinny-fat land.
> but it goes mostly to the gut
This is so weird to me if you're always working out as you said. What are you doing at the gym? Compound barbell movements with heavy weights will absolutely prevent this and get you jacked in the right places.
It's not guaranteed. People are abnormal. I'm abnormal and don't gain muscle like others and I am constantly training to failure.
Gaining muscle becomes really complicated for some people since not everyone has the same hormones, androgen receptor density, myostatin levels, etc. Some people grow like freaks and others never do. I can sympathize but I am skeptical of 99% of people since most I've seen also don't do every thing right and it's clear that's usually the issue.
Each every 1-3 days
That is way too much, of the wrong type. You're doing a lot of isolation work, but really you should be focusing on compound lifts with the barbell. Check out Stronglifts 5x5 for example.
Valid. Part of the problem is, I'm working with what I have in the apartment and apartment gym; the best workout is the one you can do on the way to the bathroom / between desk chair and washing the dishes / continuously throughout the day whenever you have a moment, or after work with no hassle? But it's a tradeoff, as you imply. The other aspect is, I've been training with appearance (especially to women) in mind as that's the goal, e.g. with extra attention to lats, upper chest, and delts. Would love to/should do more compound lift. (Don't have a full bar available atm)
> the best workout is the one you can do on the way to the bathroom
Absolutely not. This is what you tell sedentary people to get them to move a bit. For your purpose of looking good, you're wasting your time. You need to add weight every workout.
> I've been training with appearance (especially to women) in mind
That is the wrong mindset, but then again what I told you earlier will give you the appearance you seek. Seriously just go to a proper gym with a barbell.
Regexorcist is right. You need to increase weight every week. Try going to the gym religiously for 1 year, with proper progressive overload. I'm not saying that you will be big, but if all you have done is the listed exercises at home, without progressive overload, you didn't really try
You can avoid the downsides by being very informed. Sounds like you're still early in the journey.
I sympathize with being 3 sigma on the distribution... I'm four sigma out myself. My total T is around 1200ng/dl with most everything in my bloodwork related to hormones being a genetic freak. And, yes, I'm natural. Even with my extremely high T - probably twice yours - I struggle to gain any muscle at all and look like I've never lifted a weight in my life.
I'm still doing steroids next year because I'm tired of not seeing results for my insane effort.
If you're just growing in the stomach then you're doing something wrong. Check macros - should be overly high protein. Eat only 500 calories surplus per day. Your stomach will get larger just from food volume. Your stomach will always be large if you're on a bulk - it's supposed to be full all the time.
After you gain 20lb over about 20 weeks - reasses. As it is - it sounds like you haven't done really serious tracking. When I'm bulking/cutting - I don't eat anything unless every ingredient goes on a scale and I track everything down to the gram. One way to make less lifestyle less painful is to do meal prep and label all your meal tins with the macros. (Or just be obnoxious and measure everything out where each tin is the exact same - harder to do)
Get a dexascan a couple weeks into your bulk then a couple months in. You'll be able to tell if you're only gaining fat or if you're gaining lean body mass. Same process with cutting. Your eyes might not be well trained.
That is a fantastic insight, and a wild natural T level, especially with the low muscle gain! (As you inferred I measured at 650ng/dL with sample size 1; not sure how it flows with time; didn't get a free-test measurement, but should do that; kind of curious how that plays into your situation too) I was expecting to measure low based on the muscle thing + generally low-superficial-T features like minimal facial hair, and low body hair/thin eyebrows, then would have gone straight to it, but... I paused to reconsider after the measurement.
Doctors don't take stuff like this seriously (Varies wildly, but I have a number of family/friends who are doctors, and was in a military field under flight doc supervision/physicals for most of my career). I imagine it's not on their list of medically significant conditions as it's a superficial one. They deal with things that cause immediate or future health problems (or med disqualification for the job), or effect quality-of-life directly. Being extremely skinny (High or normal test for us respectively!) doesn't register as it's superficial/aesthetic. I wonder if your hormone-related identification would be more actionable as you have that number? While 6'2 / 130lbs (Not sure your example) is extremely rare, without any direct consequences on health, it doesn't register. Nothing to fail me on a physical for, no treatment plans that fit, and doesn't pattern match with people checking into hospital.
I think re growing the stomach - I meant more that responds very quickly to changes in diet in either direction; I can go from pudgy/belly to flat abs in a few weeks. I'm hoping the ab work will help a bit with overall look in well-fitting clothes or shirtless, and help with rib flare, but it's probably skippable compared to the bigger lifts.
For the macros, you're right: I have not being doing any tracking. I have been (For the past 6 months when I did a big shift) eating slowly, and paying attention to hunger/satiation signals. No longer finishing a meal just because it tastes good, if I'm no longer hungry. I have cut out all carbs-sans-fiber. No sugary foods (other than fruit, dark chocolate etc), no refined grains unless eating out. Lots of veggies, meat, eggs, and fruit + whey shakes. So, high protein, high fiber, normalish carbs and fat. As you say, probably need to load on the protein more. (More meat/whey/eggs/peanut butter?) How has the tracking worked out for you; any insights? I'm curious about the effort involved, and accuracy of any numbers put in.
I should do the dex! I'm curious; just looked up; $130 near me; will do it! The 12% estimate was based on visual cues like bicep vein, muscle definition, appearance of facial bones/masceters etc. If I eat lazily, it goes up to probably 18-20%; then I look like I have never seen a gym. Would love to see the actual number.
What is stopping you from doing the steroids now? Test or a mix? Worried about the hairline / body hair or negative face shape changes? I am giving this one final push, then will probably hop in in 1-2 years if this still isn't working. My lifts have stayed the same or gone slightly up while I've been getting lean. The lean thing for is a realization that I am accepting the build, and don't want to hide the muscles I have. I love the way I look without a shirt or in tight-fitting clothes now, but still have an extreme BMI.
Btw, that last point seems to be also one of those counter-intuitive things: For the ultra-skinny (Or maybe more acurrately for anyone who's lean, but has some muscles), looking good without a shirt or in form-fitting clothes is a completely different beast from not. Can go from "Looks fit" to "Doesn't know what a gym" is from a change of clothes alone!
Have you actually done a proper bulk/cut cycle? Gaining fat is normal when bulking, then you cut (lose the fat while maintaining the muscle).
Valid - no, and I should probably do that. You're right that it's worth trying, and I haven't done it. The short-term skinny fat / gut+love handles is obviously a non-factor if part of a bulk where I could remove it later.
What surgery? How did you find the probiotic?
No idea. Just kept trying shit from random reddits. One recommended something with a certain strain. The digestive advantage 4 in 1 seemed to help for a while. It has BC30, GBI30, 6086. I can't remember which was less common in probiotics but one of those apparently was the one that would help me.
I didn't even think that these things had "different strains" - I thought they were just random junk mail spam they'd throw in your gut but I guess some are concentrated with different bacteria that can help me. Honestly I should get back on it because I've been suffering greatly lately.
Interesting. I can never gain proper mass and lately i feel like i might have IBS too...
Just visit/move to Philippines/China or (South) East Asia in general, if you are 40 (and white) you will have absolutely zero problems to find someone who will make you happy, though I would be realistic about age difference, which will either make you walking ATM or real partner.
Unironically, i have experienced this unwillingly.
I am a westerner and recently traveled to some science conference and casually met this Indian girl (living in India, she travelled to the conference as well), about 24 years old and we clicked immediately. We ended up talking a lot and we had vastly more aligned life goals (having kids, starting a family etc) than i have with my average western female co-workers or women i meet outside work.
Unironically I’m starting to believe i might have to move east if i want to start a family.
>either make you walking ATM or real partner
I don't see how that is any different from the west except you get better bang for your bucks.
in the west you have better odds the woman has similar or even higher living standard and income than you, so there is lower chance you will become walking ATM regardless of age difference (though obviously with 20 years younger woman it is very likely it will happen even in the west)
That might be true but outside of the west it's a lot harder to financially ruin you with a divorce not to mention it is less socially accepted.
> (Think Oppenheimer or Bin Laden)
Lol you went from 0 to 100% really quickly there.
Hah yea odd examples, but they're the only two people I can think of who have my build. (I'm between them on height and total pounds, but that is the level of extreme skinny)
Nah man there are many people like those in Southern Europe and Western Asia. A lot of them are married. For good or bad.
"not into dogs".
That's OK, most of the single woman I know don't care if you like pets or not. As for how you look that's not a huge problem - again most of those same women have expectations in the looks department that are best described as average. And you're gainfully employed! This is better and better.
The only thing I can suggest is to put yourself in a position to meet more women because the more actual real life women you meet the better the chance of finding one that feels that spark.
> and am not into dogs
That's fine. Women are more likely to be into cats anyways.
Hah, I think this is regional, and age-dependent. I mentioned it because ~60% of my Hinge matches have 1 or more dogs, and about half of those have something explicitly stating "If you don't love dogs / my dog, it won't work". At least 2/6 pics will have the dog in it.
44, unemployed since July, on a cross country train trip trying to decide if it is worth going on. Stood on a bridge a bit too long the other day just wondering what the point is.
It is over for a lot of us in IT. It isn't going to get better, it is going to get worse very quickly. Rather than tell myself a convenient lie, I'd rather try to figure out why to keep living in a world like this.
Anyone going through the same thing, I hope you find something worth living for.
Keep going man, switch countries, never call it done.
You never know what awaits behind the corner.
Tell us about the train trip.
Amtrak has a $500 10-segment, 30-day rail pass in the US.
I am doing a winding Seattle to Lancaster, PA trip visiting friends and family.
Currently heading to Yuma, AZ after spending yesterday in the Bay Area.
I would rather recommend flying to Southeast Asia, much better value for your money, you can stay there easily 5-10 times longer for the same money as in the US, while experiecing different cultures/cuisines to get different perspective on life.
That sounds like a good deal! Staying with friends and family sounds like good company, and saves on costs.
Plenty of good weather down in Yuma. Sunniest city on earth! You got friends/family there too?
Have you watched any videos by @AdamDoesNotExist on YouTube [0]? He does some random/crazy Amtrak trips, but apart from that I enjoy his nice habit of when things going wrong of saying "and that's ok because ...", trying to find some good in the bad.
p.s. ignore sibling that comment criticising your trip
[0] https://www.youtube.com/@AdamDoesNotExist
This honestly sounds like a nice voyage. Thanks for sharing.
My personal fantasy is going and spending a week deep in Canyonlands. Few people, good isolation, dark nights.
I'm 40; multiple disabilities due to a rare disease with no cure and neurodivergent. I live in a autocratic third-world country. I had to shutdown my startup for which I had put everything due to my health complications.
I was lost and didn't see any meaning to life, until;
I met this women, with a progressive muscle wasting rare-disease without cure which would eventually make her bed-ridden. Apart from regular work, she works day and night to help people with same disease as hers.
She's always jovial and never seen her complain. Watching her, my problems became minuscule. We fell in love and got married.
I have found my new meaning for life.
P.S. My username is my name, feel free to reach out.
Absolutely not trying to downplay your feelings about this, but was your career really the only thing you were living for? I just find it so hard to relate to. There's so many other activities that bring meaning to life. Try a dance class
What if, in a year, the labor market impact is significant across the board and unemployment is reaching historic heights?
The government should provide the financial support and implement mechanisms for distributing AI-generated wealth more broadly, as planned in the policy proposals Anthropic and OpenAI publish.
I am truly optimistic about the future, and I think it is too early to say that things are not going to get better.
We could very well have a nice life with minimal requirement to work for salary in the near future.
hey
Hey Herman, saw your post on an X post today, i'm from Argentina and wanted to reach out. Never used this forum before but registered to talk to you. I know these are strage times with maybe more uncertainty than has ever been before in human history (i know i may be too dramatic with that statement, humany has had dark times before)
Still, even in these strange days we are living on, I know and i'm certain that all of us have something to live for, call it a purpose, call it a calling, but there is one, for me and there is one for you. We are more than a career, a job, or a talent. I understand it may be hard to see that if we commited a big part of our lives to that career, but as long as we breath, we have the chance to take new decissions.
I truly hope you find that, it make take some time, but it is there. I'll pray for you man, i know God has a purpose for you, and He knows you, and loves you.
Please feel free to reach out to me, you can find me on X at @santiagosas1 or IG at @santiagosas
Take care Herman!
Just read this article, may be it gives you a new perspective of this times
https://felixrieseberg.com/how-to-be-more-ambitious-a-tutori...
We should talk.
I’m college educated, have a successful career doing things that I enjoy to a decent degree, have a wonderful house, wife and kid. If you showed my life to my younger self and asked “would you take this life?” I would have answered every single time wholeheartedly “yes! I’m living the dream!”
But I only recently truly accepted that the life I am living (and have created for myself and family) is actually the dream. We so often miss the greatest times in our lives because we are too focused on the unknowns of the future.
This rings true for me - I wish I could go back and tell my younger self not to prevaricate over trivialities. Maybe it's rose colored glasses but those times feel very idyllic otherwise.
I think this rings true for many people, but the mind works in mysterious ways. There are folks who have nothing who are mentally well, and folks who have everything they ever wanted who are severely ill.
44. Three kids. Getting divorced. I live in my car now. Why? Because I have zero trust any job will come back. Also: I enjoy living in my car. I remain highly active building and building and building with agents. I am very up to speed. Have been getting interviews. But none of them convert. I think all the companies capable of paying my salary needs are going to be only downsizing forever. So that leaves do my own company or a startup. Neither of which cover my alimony or child support. I missed my last interview last week - I think they genuinely pulled the req, simply - not hiring the role anymore due to AI uncertainty.
I don’t know about everyone else. My approach is to cut costs to the absolute bone and live like a monk.
I have no idea what is happening to my employability. The only thing I can do is get as lean as possible. Thus - life in a van / car.
Try going to somewhere overseas within the same timezone with lower living expenses. This will be easier than living in a vehicle and more interesting and does not preclude flying back for jobs.
>alimony
Why on earth should you be on the hook for alimony given your circumstances and situation? That makes zero sense.
In the enlightened system, you are on the hook for your last 3 years of salary, not the immediate circumstance.
My older brother killed himself nearly 20 years ago at the age of 50. I don't think he ever considered himself successful. He had financial problems, alcoholism, and was lonely without any lasting relationships. When his resources were exhausted he just ended his life. There was nothing in the estate of value since his assets, such as they were, were less than tax liability he had accumulated. The owner of the house he had been renting tried to get us siblings to pay for repairs and cost of disposal, but we demurred (and told the court we'd be happy if that owner was named executor; they declined the honor.) I think his car just disappeared off the street one day, probably towed to an abandoned car lot and auctioned. At least the state recouped some of the owed taxes that way.
I'm curious to learn more, and I'm sorry for your loss. Did he always struggle with relationships? It does seems like people with good relationships (friends, family, lovers, etc.) have a much higher quality of life. Yet, for many men, it is very hard to build and maintain these.
Yes, very much yes to all of that.
In contrast, I've been married for 45 years and have two grown children. He told me once, of course decades ago, that he envied what I had.
It's interesting to see this on the HN frontpage alongside an article about how American's social activity has steeply declined over the last 30 years [1]. To me these are very much related. We have less and less community than ever.
Then, at the same time, other aspects of our lives -- family raising and career -- are trickier than ever. Family raising these days takes more time than ever [2] (which admittedly is good and bad). Career growth in the era of stagnant wages has been tough for many fields of work, and AI threatens many of the remaining ones.
It's hard to feel fulfilled these days: our social lives are poor, and we're constantly busy doing things that don't necessarily help us get ahead.
[1] https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=50089921 [2] https://www.economist.com/graphic-detail/2026/01/09/millenni...
A lot of folks here have written a lot of raw and vulnerable things here. I read a lot of pain, uncertainty, and fear. Just know this. In no uncertain terms.. You are all needed and worthy. We all are. I know the struggles. I'm in a seemingly neverending thicket of mud. But I keep fighting. I will keep fighting. And so will you. If you need someone to talk to, no judgement, no neverending questions to make you justify your existence or experience. jjf at tinyarchives dot com. Stay strong. Take care of yourselves. Don't give up. Keep building. <3
I am 36 and I have been thinking about suicide a tiny bit lately. But I will share my perspective with you, hopefully to draw a picture how different circumstances can be. I live in Ukraine and my optionality in life collapsed the day the war started. I had a good life, good income and traveled a lot. I used to dream of a career in big tech and life in different countries just to give it a taste. Now I am not able to leave the country because I am a male of conscription age. My city is being attacked by drones daily, and ballistic rockets a few times a month. Witnessing your country getting wrecked with rockets and drones is hell of an experience. Businesses, electricity plants, infrastructure, gas stations becoming rubble. There is also little hope in a resolution of this soon. I have to work on a job which provides a reservation from military service if I don’t want to fight, otherwise I will be picked up on the street to join the military.
I have it so much better than a lot of my countrymen, but holy shit does this suck and it is not getting better anytime soon. The hopelessness gets you.
Software engineering is one of my last remaining pillars of life remaining more or less intact. At least I get to write some code and make computers do things.
Life is a strange thing.
I hope more than anything Ukrainians will stay strong and persevere. Perhaps not even for themselves or their country, but just to witness the enemy collapse when it all ends. The mere fact that you are Ukrainian and live in Ukraine invokes a certain level of respect.
> Perhaps not even for themselves or their country, but just to witness the enemy collapse when it all ends.
I hope more than anything that Ukraine (and Russia, and Israel, and Palestine, and all the war-torn regions of the world) can one day be free of this ghoulish mindset, that world leaders will choose life instead of worshipping death
Yeah wishing to see people who tried to torture and kill you dead is ghoulish.
It’s not ghoulish but it also perpuates a never ending cycle unfortunately- we as in each culture, man, woman are all wronged in so many ways and most have legitimate grievances and are skilled in restarting and kindling those grievances with the next batch of children..ironically religion and nationalism kindles that even further while also providing a base identity to create fellowship between its adherents
But is the only way out further death and destruction?
Blessed be the peacemakers, as they say
While the attack on you is ongoing, yes, fighting back is the only way out. Giving up and dying is not peacemaking.
Fighting back to protect yourself is one thing, but exacting revenge leads to a cycle of violence. Especially when it is on an entire nationality or ethnicity.
Honestly, who are you talking to and what are you reading? Most Ukrainians I've met, my parents, their friends, refugees we've met: just want the Russians to go home.
From a few levels up in this thread:
> Perhaps not even for themselves or their country, but just to witness the enemy collapse when it all ends
To me this sounds like a desire for retribution, not just an end to hostilities. And that is what I am replying to.
I have no reason to believe that is an attitude commonly held by Ukrainians. And it seems like that post wasn't even written by a Ukranian.
on a serious note, it really is. death/execution as a punishment makes no sense. there are fates worse than death for those whose offenses we'd love to spill the blood for. Alcatraz is one such place where those fates are served.
and for crimes that are not enough to execute for, bog-standard prisons are enough. they are imperfect, but those willing to change prove themselves there, and a good one should give enough opportunities for a criminal to re-educate, reconsider some of their life choices, and rehabilitate.
punishment by death is never the right fit.
We're not talking a finished crime where "peaceful" punishment is an option. It is an ongoing war, missiles destroy cities and lives. When someone is doing that to you, killing them is usually the only way to stop it. Surrendering is not an option, see Bucha.
agree. yet, most of the time, most people have enforcement infra, and having an intent to kill, and not resisting it, is ghoulish. that way, one is perpetuating the very cycle that Europe attempted to stop within itself through coal and steel
You're probably was lucky to be born in war-free region, so it is easy to label things as ghoulish from a position of morally concerned outsider. You was never forced to leave your homeland and become a refugee, you was not separated from your loved ones by the border of warring countries, your friends and loved ones were not killed or imprisoned by invading nazi army. And it's a good thing for yourself, but you are not in a suitable position to judge Ukrainians or Syrians or other peoples who have been through it.
Yes, I am lucky enough to not have experienced mass violence, and also I don't wish it on anyone else. I empathize (though I do not agree) with people who have experienced it, have had their souls worn down by the evil done to them, and who adopt these sorts of attitudes because of that. But there are also people who have had lives just as easy as mine, and yet, from their place of safety and comfort, they egg on war, and cheer when others get killed. I have nothing but contempt for this last group
You are right. Warmongers that never set foot in battlefields deserve nothing more than contempt.
I lived close to Donetsk until 2022 and I totally support the "ghoulish" label. we GOTTA find the way to stop this cycle of violence and unify around something. so far, practical everyday matters such as coal and steel, or silicon, have been pretty successful at keeping another world war at bay.
Interesting! I am from Donetsk myself, but left in 2014. I am pretty much united with my Russian friends on the topic of destroying putin's regime. Not sure if any other unity makes sense now.
putin has objectively caused a lot of harm, and desire for carnage is understandable, yet if we are to break this cycle, we should make the format of Nuremberg trials the new norm and make it so that even if we want to, we can't start a new war. unity around hatred is fleeting, temporary, and often leads to overcorrection, such as me being harassed for talking to my mother in Russian (I also fluently speak in Ukrainian and tell them go fuck themselves using all the regional swears I collected all over Ukraine) or Israeli having to apologize themselves for Netanyahu's decisions.
and everyday matters? they are boring and important, and if someone dares to touch the supply chain, they should face all the economic repercussions imaginable. ideally, this will make punishment for war immediate, inherent, and structural. and if we take it further into pony land, we may deprecate the military because its purpose will be carried by Brenda sitting behind a desk with Excel (or LibreOffice Calc) before her. :)
How can you group Ukraine and Palestine in with Russia and Israel?
Russia and Israel are the countries causing the regions to be war torn. They are mass murdering invaders, no better than Nazi Germany.
The mass murdering invaders in October 2023 were Hamas.
This consistent oversimplification and allergy to reading actual history and being an informed citizen is what ensures these types of wars will continue
It is my one sincere wish in life that the suffering of Ukrainians is not for naught and that the people of Europe support you until victory.
But Europe isn’t really supporting Ukraine, they’re just providing enough supplies to keep them in the fight. No state seems willing to provide enough assistance to allow for Ukrainian victory, because of the costs and risks associated with that aid. Even countries at little risk of reprisal from Russia are reluctant to do much at all.
As such, all of us doing nothing more than “voicing support” on the internet and some far-away rally, should offer our empathy, and not presume to tell them how much we’re “helping”.
> But Europe isn’t really supporting Ukraine, they’re just providing enough supplies to keep them in the fight
What is your definition of "supporting", if "providing support" doesn't count?
A lot of European countries (especially those closest to Russia) are doing a fuckton relative to their economies.
The US is the despicable laggard, even when accounting for our distance from the action.
(And especially when accounting for the fact we promised them our protection of their sovereignty)
None of the European countries are doing much relative to their economies. Russia's GDP is about the same as Italy's. The rest of the EU and NATO countries together have an economy that is enormously larger than Russia's. So why do they allow Russia to push them around?
Here are the aid allocations to Ukraine as a share of GDP of the top contributors (all approximate from 2022 through to 2026):
Denmark: 3%
Estonia: 3%
Lithuania: 2.5%
Norway: 2.5%
Latvia: 2%
Sweden: 2%
Finland: 1.5%
...
UK [†]: 0.75%
...
United States [†]: 0.5%
[†]: These countries signed an agreement that they would protect Ukraine's sovereignty.
For context, the US's entire national defense budget is about 3% of our GDP. Or alternatively, Medicare is 3% of our GDP.
This statement is false: "None of the European countries are doing much relative to their economies."
Ya, that's basically nothing. None of those European countries have asked their citizens to sacrifice. The welfare state continues uninterrupted. They were still buying Russian fossil fuels instead of telling people to put on a sweater.
As a US citizen I think that our country should also do more to assist Ukraine. But fundamentally this is a European problem. They need to find a solution instead of expecting the US to bail them out again.
If 3% of GDP is basically nothing (US defense budget or Medicare), then why isn’t the expectation that the US puts in “basically nothing” (3%) as a token gesture towards its promise to guarantee their sovereignty?
Again, I think the US should do more but it's really not our problem. We never guaranteed Ukraine's sovereignty. If you're referring to the Budapest Memorandum, it contains no such promise.
The other states under the US nuclear umbrella find no comfort in the legalesing the difference between "a guarantee" and "an assurance."
If we want nuclear proliferation, breaking our promises is the way to do it.
The idea that a marauding steppe warlord succeeding in Ukraine and taking control of by far the most advanced and experienced near-peer military on the planet, with aspirations to advance further into Europe, is "not our problem" is laughable.
Ukraine was never under the US nuclear umbrella. Where are you getting these crazy ideas?
"Nuclear umbrella" is not a well-defined term. It is the set of promises the US made to non-nuclear states. It made a set of guarantees to some set of nations (e.g. NATO++), and a set of assurances to other states, like Ukraine.
Our reneging on our assurances indicates weakness in our guarantees, which risks a proliferation spiral.
For example, NATO's Article 5 can be legalesed the same exact way you're trying to legalese the Budapest Memorandum.
Budapest Memorandum:
> The Russian Federation, the United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland, and The United States of America reaffirm their commitment to seek immediate United Nations Security Council action to provide assistance to Ukraine, as a non-nuclear-weapon state party to the Treaty on the Non-Proliferation of Nuclear Weapons, if Ukraine should become a victim of an act of aggression or an object of a threat of aggression in which nuclear weapons are used.
NATO Article 5:
> The Parties agree that an armed attack against one or more of them in Europe or North America shall be considered an attack against them all and consequently they agree that, if such an armed attack occurs, each of them, in exercise of the right of individual or collective self-defence recognised by Article 51 of the Charter of the United Nations, will assist the Party or Parties so attacked by taking forthwith, individually and in concert with the other Parties, such action as it deems necessary, including the use of armed force, to restore and maintain the security of the North Atlantic area.
Both agreements promise assistance. Do you think the US's view that your position of "not our problem" qualifies as assistance under the Budapest memorandum, but that somehow "not our problem" would not qualify as assistance under Article 5?
I'm curious for your opinion, though it doesn't matter much. The reality is that all of this is destroying the umbrella and its civilization-protecting purpose: https://www.cnbc.com/2026/08/19/nuclear-proliferation-defens...
What a weird non sequitur. Unlike the North Atlantic Treaty which established NATO, the Budapest Memorandum of 1994 was explicitly not a mutual defense treaty (or even a treaty at all). It merely required the USA to bring violations to the UN Security Council, which we did in 2022. Promises made, promises kept.
Again, in a legalistic sense, sure.
But again, in a legalistic sense, even NATO Article 5 also doesn't obligate the US to do anything.
No document (Budapest memoranda or NATO treaty) can require the US to do anything, so all that matters is whether the US is signaling itself as a country that defends its partners.
If you believe that Article 5 obligates the US to do anything more than what we've done so far in Ukraine, please explain why.
If you don't believe that Article 5 does that, then I'm not sure why you seem dismissive of the idea that we're creating conditions for a nuclear proliferation spiral.
If you don't understand the basics of how NATO operates then I really can't help you. All of the signatories clearly understand that it's a mutual defense treaty, requiring more than just diplomatic or economic assistance. Which is why the US threatened to withdraw from the treaty after repeated failures of many other members to meet their defense spending targets while freeloading on US security guarantees. If the US government didn't believe that the North Atlantic Treaty obligated us to do anything then they wouldn't have bothered to threaten to withdraw in the first place.
You should go listen to some international law experts talk about it. No, Article 5 does not obligate the US to more than "assistance." We can send them a dollar and call it done.
"All of the signatories clearly understand..." just like all of the signatories of Budapest understood that it meant that each side would prevent each other side from invading Ukraine.
Good luck getting anyone else to give up their nukes, now that the world has seen what the US is made of. We, yourself included, are less safe because of Trump's treachery.
The Trump administration has made numerous foreign policy errors but when it comes to nuclear proliferation there is plenty of blame to go around. The Budapest Memorandum was signed under the Clinton administration, and it specifically didn't require the USA to defend Ukraine. Russia first invaded Ukraine in 2014 and the Obama administration didn't do much about it (and other EU/NATO countries also did effectively nothing). Russia then re-invaded Ukraine in 2022 and the Biden administration provided a little support but still the Ukrainians were largely left to fend for themselves. I'd like to see the Trump administration do more (short of direct military involvement) but still this is primarily a European issue. Why have the other European countries been so lazy and passive instead of asking their citizens to accept the risks and sacrifices necessary to defeat Russian aggression?
We'll probably see more nuclear proliferation going forward, regardless of who sits in the White House. No way to stop it now.
Ukraine is provided with tech, weapons intelligence, and all kinds of equipment. You are spewing nonsense.
Europe is divided by propaganda and the situation is quite volatile at the moment. Some European countries do support Ukraine more than others..
>No state seems willing to provide enough assistance to allow for Ukrainian victory
Because Putin will never back down, by definition a Ukrainian "victory" would require the fall of Russia. Which would likely require a world war.
Ukraine recieves 80B EUR in aid each year from various international partners. There is plenty of support.
You can learn more from a German, independent, non-profit research institute (Kiel) here: https://www.kielinstitut.de/research/topics/war-against-ukra...
Can you avoid conscription by volunteering your SW engineering talents for the defense sector? That was an option in many 20th-century wars but I don't know if it's relevant these days.
As an American, I'd like to say I'm as horrified by our faithless leadership as you are frightened by the circumstances you're facing, but that just sounds pointlessly shallow. All of Western civilization has a stake in keeping Putin at bay, but only your country is being forced to confront that fact right now. We should feel grateful to Ukraine, and in fact many of us do.
Suffice it to say we aren't all aligned with Musk and Trump, and many of us fervently wish we could do more to help in a meaningful capacity. Trouble is, about a third of our eligible voters have decided to put a single party decisively in charge of all of our branches of government, and the way our system is structured, that leaves the rest of us more or less powerless. That will hopefully change soon, but we'll see. Try to stay strong, and we will try as well.
You can, but as usual the opportunities are limited as military don’t need that much full stack engineers.
On the other hand senior embedded/mechanical/electronics/AI engineers are of the very high demand.
What is a senior AI engineer? Genuinely interested.
Someone with experience in convnets, SLAM, motion planning, and a bunch of graph algorithms?
AI has been a thing for decades
And still I had never heard of "AI engineer". I learned AI as part of CS, back when it wasn't quite "intelligence" and we didn't call prompting "engineering".
Whatever I'm about to say may sound hollow, given that I've not been in your shoes.
At my previous (well known tech) company, we had a number of older Romanians who grew up in the Communist era. I became close with one of them. And the stories he told me were just harrowing. They were not at war, but the government simply couldn't provide for the people (other than giving them a good education). The struggle for basic necessities in the 80's became real. He had a wife and a newborn, and the wife was sick, and they couldn't afford any furniture. There was real concern the baby would die because the mother couldn't get even basic rest (no mattress, no bed, sleeping on concrete floor, etc).
The stuff he had to do to ensure she got a bed was crazy.
And then later there were food shortages, etc. Dodging bullets, etc.
But they all somehow persevered and focused on surviving. And then got out of the country as soon as the borders opened up. Eventually, because of their skills, they got great jobs. Very senior and well respected in the company.
But of course, they know people who did lose hope and ultimately committed suicide.
Living in the US, I've encountered lots of former refugees from war zones. People like yourself with skills did well here. For sure they struggled, but eventually they all "made it".
If you have skills, I hope you can last long enough to get there too.
Life is strange. And circumstance even stranger.
I guess a die is rolled somewhere in the universe and we are born—who knew where, who knew when.
And there are many who are even less fortunate than ourselves.
18. same ass of a country (to outsiders, have a look at all the countless debacles concerning corruption to understand why "ass"), except that I have 7 mostly worry-free years left to live and the market for juniors (and thus, me) is closed. if I get drafted, I'm waiting out for an opportunity to shoot my head.
honestly, having a decently paying blue-collar job made me think whether tech is worth it at all, given that I'll lose all the extra benefits (from canteen to proper bomb shelter to gym to commute) and cut my already tight paycheck by 20-25%. for what? for "tech"? where I have to be able to wake up at 3AM when the client's LLM took down their prod, commute to a vulnerable office in Kyiv (and pay for expensive AND equally vulnerable housing there), live under a threat of getting fired because I was "not AI enough" or whatever management wants, or because I don't have gigabit Wi-Fi in the shelter? fuck it, I'll rather be a night-shift loader and idk, learn embedded at home.
the world devolving into proompting has ruined tech for me. prolly I'll get a Cat. C driver's license and spend little what I have remaining of life on the road. if I get lucky, I may eventually reach CE and Euro 95 certs, and that in turn gives me some sort of safety against mobilization.
if the war ends before I become 25, I'll likely end up a stereotypical himbo truck driver. I'm tired of having to perform the smartness.
You have my sympathy. I can't offer you any advice, but I was just thinking earlier about how awful I feel for younger people working in this industry, and that didn't even include being Ukrainian.
Thank you, and one in the above comment, for sharing this. I feel comments like these need to be seen more frequently by people not in your situation. Hard claim I can even imagine what it feels like.
> if I get drafted, I'm waiting out for an opportunity to shoot my head
Huh?
> surrender to the other side (Russia I believe?) and spend 1-2 years [...] citizenship proceedings [...]
I almost read it as an insult, but I'll assume that you either forgot or didn't know one peculiar fact: Russian army almost never keeps their POWs alive, and even if it does, it absolutely never lets them out of the army into Russia - only back into Ukraine, through the battlefield.
this would be a valid option if I was a Russian who does not want to fight Ukraine, sure. Ukraine is ± alright with Russian POWs, partly because we have Europe watching over our shoulders. the reasoning behind your idea is sound, assuming that both sides wage an honest and Geneva-accurate war, except that Russia prefers to utilize the Genevan convention as a piece of toilet paper.
so, your idea effectively becomes suicidal, but you also get a great deal of suffering. why not cut the suffering while I can?
Can you suggest some things foreigners could do to help the situation in Ukraine?
You can actually make donations for various causes including sending batches of drones for the Ukrainian on the frontline. Look up Jake Broe for example, he does organize such campaigns.
There’s also https://savelife.in.ua/en/
Jeezus christ.
Lost for words fella, lost for words.
I'm extremely sorry to hear about your life and honestly I don't want to be someone who is provides faux comfort saying everything will be alright. However, I am trying to imagine myself in your shoes and if it ever came to a point where I thought it my life is better off taken out, I would be willing to explore my absolute last options, no matter how miniscule the probability may be. Maybe some variant of high-risk emmigration? Maybe there's a waterway or a boat route or underground passage or forest or something.If I was anyway planning to take my life away without giving these extremely low probability options a chance, might as well go down with a fight. Probably this is naive, but that's only because I have personally never been in such a situation ever to even be able to provide a decent enough advice. I am completely baffled and very sorry you are going through this. You're not the first one to share this experience and probably won't be the last and at times like this it irritates me the feminist organizations all over the world have been dead silent on this matter. Equality only when it benefits them, I guess. I wish you good luck and hopefully get to meet you in person to learn of your amazing story of survival.
Good luck!
If you're going to kill yourself anyway, why not just acquiesce? (To Russia.) This question may be stupid depending on the reader but I'm asking sincerely.
Not OP, but i've seen footage from that war, and sometimes you can't decide how to go out. I've seen someone grasping for air like 30 minutes, while their face is half blown out. A death is a mercy on them.
Necessity is the mother of invention and I can only imagine the volume of necessity that your environment demands. If fighting is not an option, can you use your skills to make some lemonade out of a giant bowl of lemons?
Hang in there. This, too, shall pass.
Go and fight back against the people invading your country.
I have non-Ukrainian family members who flew thousands of km over to fight for you right now; you should be 'ahead of them in line' for the cause.
When the war is over you can build things with software; it won't be as fulfilling.
This is one of the densest comments here yet.
It's the only sane comment because nobody else seems to face the 'Elephant in the Room', obviously that the situation is existential for everyone, the nation is under assault and that his contemporaries are fighting an invader.
It's distasteful for people to wallow in the lost hope of their own self-serving concerns and complain about their personal 'career trifles' when their community is facing violence and annihilation.
Acting in the service of others, standing up for one's own dignity is the most deeply fulfilling and transformative actions one could ever take.
Many of my own family members volunteered to help Europe - literally across generations - then and even now.
The best thing that person can do is stop wallowing in self pity and take action, for others and also themselves.
There are a thousand ways for someone to engaging in helping.
Did you consider voluteering with the Ukraine Army to be a drone pilot? There are many jobs that are far from the zero line, so very little risk of death/injury. Also, from everything that I read, most people cherish the friendships they build during time of war. There are few things that bring together men fighting a common enemy.
It is sad to see so many smart, inquisitive and dedicated people who come to this site feel this way. I suspect a lot of it may be because of how dedicated and passionate people are about their work and their skill and it's getting harder to make a living with it or feel like they are being valued for it.
I strongly encourage everyone to try keeping a gratitude journal - just write three positive things that happened to you today.it can really change the way you look at your life.
A lot of the suicidal ideation has to do with lack of agency and control over your situation in life. I am a firm believer that you need to take a step back and look at the possibilities in your life. You are not just a SWE/whatever your job is - you are a problem solver, someone with curiosity, someone dedicated someone who is playing other roles in life than just an employee - a friend, a parent, neighbour, child etc
If you feel like you have no control over the path you are in - change the path, don't stop the walk. You can move to a different career, different country, different partner. Sure some of our circumstances cannot be changed - but don't make the arbitrary standard of life you set for yourself determine whether your life is worth living.
> You are not just a SWE/whatever your job is - you are a problem solver
You should know by now that many of us joined the profession because we like programming and not "problem solving". In 23 years of career I've never cared much about any business problem of the companies I was working for. I never cared about solving customers' problems, or the "impact" of my work, only about the technical beauty of it.
Yes of course - but I suspect you are still solving the technical problems within what you do? The beauty is the elegance of the solution,the optimisation,the way it works. All of these things are problems worth solving. This might be your favourite thing - but it's not the only thing you can solve? What about the second favourite thing?
There are always opportunities to explore an alternative - in a different area, in a different country. Many options to consider before concluding there are none.
> The beauty is the elegance of the solution,the optimisation,the way it works. All of these things are problems worth solving.
Yes, but LLMs, and especially their mandatory and exclusive use, make that impossible.
> This might be your favourite thing - but it's not the only thing you can solve? What about the second favourite thing?
There is no second favorite thing.
> There are always opportunities to explore an alternative - in a different area, in a different country. Many options to consider before concluding there are none.
I'm already in country number 9 since leaving Italy. We'll see.
I really empathise with the voices in here. Remember you are not alone.
But also remember that building a life, even for the most successful people, is like building a castle on sand. Existentially everything crumbles with time, our brains, bodies, income, status.
When we hold onto ideas of how things should be, we suffer, because we live in a reality of flux, and that flux seems to be increasing over time. We are moving towards great volatility and we are all apart of it.
In times like these people need a philosophy - I believe in something akin to Buddhism, because it’s taught me the more we cling, the more we suffer.
I implore everybody to do that soul searching and realise that we can always find something else, and something better, if we adjust our expectations and attachments of how we think it should be.
This is the greatest change of our time, and the outcomes are not a reflection of your performance.
If anyone is interested, checkout Ram Dass, some great YouTube videos and podcasts that can really help get a sense of life
Before everyone jumps in with their favorite ad-hoc reason, take a look at the graph first. The headline is technically true, but barely. For the 45-64 age group, the suicide rate is barely different than it was in 2012 and 2018, and about the same as it was in 1985 (24 vs 22-23 per 100k.) Seems like all age groups have held steady (10-24 25-44 and 75+) or trended up a bit (45-64 and 64-75) since the early 2000's, after dipping from the 1980s.
The graph shows that suicides overall are down from 30 years ago, while the same cohort that was higher in 1985-2005 (25-44) is now higher in 2005-2025 (45-64). Perhaps there is something about the generation more than the situation or the age of the individual.
The generation supporting the boomers?
The childhood lead exposure generation (not being flippant; it may also be why we engaged in the worst crime spree in history as teens and young adults).
I am not much of a gamer and sure as hell don't keep up with many people that I gamed with 20 years ago but there was one guy that I would talk with ever few years. I talked with him and a few months later he was gone. I don't know why his suicide hit me so hard. Maybe because I connect him to a different phase of my life. Maybe because he was the guy who was the life of chat. I don't know.
What I do know is that I wish he could have known how many people would miss him.
Makes a lot of sense to me. If you're young and things aren't going so well then at least you can have hope that you'll be able to turn it around. You have time on your side. That all goes away when you start to get to middle age. You're locked in by your earlier choices.
Now I'm here staring at AI with the reality that if it makes my skills irrelevant I'll have no fallback, and I'll be at an age where reskilling is extremely hard and I'm still nowhere close to retiring.
The top comment here recommends Emile Durkheim's Suicide book, which is a very good recommendation.
I want to recommend another one, specifically about male depression, called I Don't Want to Talk About It by Terrence Real [1].
It's known that more men than women commit suicide, although more women are diagnosed with depression. The book argues that it's because male depression is often not overt, but it's nevertheless there.
Men often end up being enclosed in their bubble, trying to fix things on their own, not willing or not knowing how to connect with others. But this connection is so important, because humans are a social species.
[1]: https://www.goodreads.com/book/show/236765
Weird nobody’s mentioning “self-made man” by nora vincent, written after experiencing a whole year living as a man. That experience gave her such a depression she ended up taking her own life.
It's really helpful to read this thread. There's a limit to how much I'll share but one thing that might ring true for others is how sort of crazy I feel because the forces people on this forum are talking about are hitting the world very unevenly.
I like my therapist quite a bit but respectfully he has no concept of how AI is impacting huge swaths of white collar work. To people who haven't experienced the 2 year delta in what a coding job looks like, you can sort of sound like a nut. Or they won't appreciate the magnitude of it. Especially if they're not plugged into the news.
I frequently look around and ask "is this really happening?" - I think it is happening, as convenient as it might be if it weren't.
Whole IT ethos for decades was about inflicting the rapid change to everyone else without empathy for recognizing the personal costs. "Lol, look how many clueless losers our clunky hated enterprise systems had eliminated, and how much did that save the shareholders. Those guys deserve it for not spending time with latest tech and not seeing what's coming."
Now that we are starting to recognize we had been bootloaders of our demise, how does our own medicine taste to us?
The core of this issue is that under capitalism, automation results in disempowerment and wealth concentration instead of collective benefit from improved efficiency.
Even AI - at least until some undefined singularity point - would have been an enormous boon for the world if it wasn't all but guaranteed that it will be used to disempower those less capable of affording and employing it at an industrial scale.
I am not suicidal and I am lucky to have loving people who I also love around. That said, with all the rapid changes in the software engineering industry and in life in general, I sometimes wonder what I am doing with my life and why.
It's like plenty of things are happening by inertia, but none of them bring any joy or make lots of sense. In such moments, I really envy people who have the courage to work on something they truly believe in. I have quite a few people to take care of, which requires financial resources, so I am not there yet.
In my circle, I've objectively had both the best and the worst life. I can tell when people are thinking about suicide because they reach out to find out if I've done myself in yet lol.
For them, I keep going. I think because both the best and worst times in my life were roughly due to my own decisions, I always have the idea that I will get back to the good times.
I'm 40 years old and taking care of both of my parents. One with cancer the other half side paralyzed after stroke. I also have thoughts like this mostly because of the current situation but also because it's hard to imagine what would be my purpose in this world if they are gone (I just hope they go before me)
But for beautiful moment in time we created a lot of value for shareholders.
Tomorrow a article, with the addition "... Women most affected".
Things that work for depression: writing, composing music, exercise, playing video games. Things that don't help: alcohol nor drugs. Role of family and community: YMMV. I envy lots of folks with supportive and kind families, but I also witnessed much suffering and terrible loss caused by a loving family that doesn't quite get the loving part right.
With that out of the way, I'll say that for as long as suicide mortality is well below cancer mortality, society doesn't really have a suicide problem.
1. fun and creative things do not strictly help everyone facing depression. Anhedonia will likely strip that enjoyment from you. Maybe they help with colloquial depressions, but the article discusses people facing practical, systemic issues that emotional regulation doesn’t solve and if anything likely makes hobbies feel like they being unproductive against a tide rising around them. Many hobbies also have barriers to entry
2. drugs may help. both in the traditional medicinal sense and recreational sense (given psilocybin is showing great results and is not widely available medicinally)
3. By your logic there is no cancer problem till the heart disease problem is solved (which is well above cancer). And widespread suffering of individuals should be ignored and belittled.
> By your logic there is no cancer problem till the heart disease problem is solved (which is well above cancer)
That's one of those things that causes me depression and anxiety: in many places cancer is actually above heart disease. From my vantage, that's a bad thing because people that die from sudden heart disease or from the sudden disintegration of their brains as the bullet from their gun travels through it get a better deal than those who die from cancer.
Suicide is sometimes a good solution to a problem (cancer) with no other solution. Make no mistake, I think that people should live forever even if we have to boil the oceans to get there; yes, I'm that kind of monster. But I'm not the kind that says that people should die in horrible agony just because of the stigma that doing otherwise imply.
Agree with everything else you said.
A strong aspect I see of this in friends is this: some variation of "it is too late to start over."
I graduated college in 1992.
2 male friends from college died by their own hand within the last decade.
By most measures, they were successful professionals.
I think part of the problem in that instance, might be "success" being necessary but not sufficient for "surviving and thriving"; and unfortunately sometimes that isn't explained along the way to even people who become conventionally successful (but, perhaps we can try to improve an awareness of the issue going forward for future gens)
I see this a lot speaking to friends and just in general online discourse. Too much news and social media. Perhaps it will all go to shit. AI is definitely changing the entire world, our industry being the first on the chopping block (maybe).
But, what can you do. There's always been injustice in the world. You just never used to hear about it 24/7/365.
Now you wake up and read about it on the little screen, later you see it on the big screen, talk about it at work, then go to bed and read about it on the little screen again. I have friends who can't even talk to me for 30 minutes without just bringing the entire mood down with doomerism.
Idk, I just do sports, work and spend time with whoever I can in whatever little free time I have left over. I had to forcibly block every news site and social media via an app otherwise I'd get addicted again and become a cynic. Reddit is by far the worst for me, insta is 2nd.
Unlike 95% of people I speak to I actually love my life and enjoy my work, and just hope that AI doesn't steal that from me.
Growing up as a first generation immigrant in a country with some of the worst inequality in the world taught me to just ignore everything but what you need to do.
This is something I sometimes feel guilty about now that I have a comfortable life. But, I feel like trading that ignorance for constant awareness just leads to anxiety and guilt and is a poor trade I don't have to make.
Edit: also this is just 1 factor. There are other factors like actual poverty, loneliness etc. I don't meant to put forth the idea that it's purely the 24 hour news cycle and social media that's to blame, just 1 aspect I see most often in my life.
https://archive.ph/sBfx5
Who can blame them?
After having failed romantically one too many times and having an average dev job AI will probably take from me, that won't allow me to FIRE for 6 more years even if I can keep it, life's not fun for me at 35 already, how will it be at 55, all wrinkled up, frail, probably cancer stricken and with no future potential left?
57 here
Yeah ....all frail and falling apart here.
Seriously,look at the age at which people run for president. We got a guy whose been living his best life by stealing from the US public in his late 70s. 50 is the new 30 after all
bruv that's some serious cope!
Less than 10% of 55 year old men have ever had cancer in their life. And many of them were diagnosed before 35. So if you don't already have cancer, your odds are much less than 10% that you'll have cancer by 55.
And if you're wrinkled and frail at 55 years old then that's your own fault. Put on some sunscreen and go for a bike ride.
besides haven't you heard? AI will cure cancer
Go to the gym. I'm 60 and in the best shape and strongest I've ever been in my life.
You're talking about FIRE and at the same time griping. Everyone has their own disappointment to deal with in life, but you might consider yourself privileged if you're able to retire at all, let alone retire early in your 40s.
I was in a similar position as a highly successful programmer after the dotcom crash in the early 2000's. Like George Bailey in "It's a wonderful life" I stood on the bridge looking down.
I had $300,000 in the bank. The thought occurred to me "What kind of idiot kills himself with that much money in the bank? Thus I started adventuring around the country looking for something to do.
I ended up driving a city bus in Las Vegas, mostly the double decker bus on The Strip. It was the most fun I ever had on a job. No regrets.
There is a study about the happiness curve that also talks about this, about in most countries happiness does decline in middle age but begins to recover around after 50 years old :-p.
https://www.weforum.org/stories/health-and-healthcare-system...
https://www.meawisdom.com/midlife-crisis/
Man this is for real. I’m 46 and I tell my therapist and my friends that I’m not suicidal but like… can we wrap this shit up already? (A tasteless joke stolen from Tom Segura)
I have been meditating on WHY I feel this way. On paper things are pretty good. I’m married. I have a job that is safe for now. I have kids. Two dogs. A house. Two cars.
But I feel really lonely and unseen and like I am a disappointment to everybody including myself. Like it makes sense I’m unseen because I’m unexceptional.
So I’ve done some things that have helped a little including scheduling lunches with friends and coworkers, more frequent date nights (especially double date nights), working out (setting and achieving even small pointless goals like mile time, distance, weight lifted, etc really helps).
All of that and it feels like I’m bailing water out of a sinking ship. It is barely enough to stay afloat and heaven help me if I skip a day or make a mistake…
It is hard to imagine doing this for another 30 years…
I used to think Soma was one of the more disturbing ideas in Brave New World. These days, I understand the temptation a little better.
It can be scary and hard to approach, but I would think you're not unexceptional or unimportant to your loved ones. Maybe you should talk to your wife about this at some point? It sounds like you're starting on this with date nights too which does seem good.
I hope you can find something that helps you feel like you're not just treading water, though.
I see you, and I feel the same way. You have articulated the dread of the monotonous sisyphean slog of being middle-aged.
Yeah, or that it is easier to identify the slog with the hindsight of middle age?
I'm not a Buddhist, but because of the stressors of my previous career I sometimes joke that I accidentally recreated the fundamental tenets of Buddhism in order to not wash out. One of the things I've come to realize is that the slog feeling you describe is something like the concept of 'samsara' or "cycle of aimless drifting, wandering or mundane existence" per the smarter people that edited the Wikipedia article. But that it's still possible to find meaning and satisfaction within this paradigm.
It’s so apt that you mention it life feeling sisyphean. I was just feeling that way while walking the dogs yesterday.
Maybe another tool would be to try to mix it up more… so each day feels different.
Especially at work where we have always been busy but lately there is no break, no time for modernization or learning or technical debt, we just move from one epic to the next epic, no fanfare, no launch parties. Just each of us at home working alone.
You have kids. Got to live on for them.
As I’ve reached middle age I’ve realized that controlling my suffering keeps me grounded.
The suffering will come out no matter what everyday for me personally no matter how comfortable the day is.
For years now I force it out with intention every day. I push to a discomfort for an hour or more a day usually doing some aerobic activity.
When my body starts failing as I get older I’ll need to explore other options but this is where I am now.
Surprisingly my brain has been rewired over the years to look forward to this controlled suffering and counterintuitively it’s made all of life much more enjoyable.
I don't claim to have all the answers, I still feel that way sometimes, but I've mostly escaped it. What really helped was a lot of Dr. K (Healthy Gamer) videos and introspection. I think I can sum up in a few bullet points what really worked for me, although it was actually a years-long process to go through.
1. Recognizing just how many of my goals and beliefs were "unnatural," in the sense that they never really originated from within me. I never in my whole life cared about money or status, but I had internalized the message that I needed to stand out (which I actually hate to do), have some glorious career, etc etc. It was completely useless pressure because I was running as hard as I could in the completely wrong direction. When I actually pay attention to what I enjoy, it's a very short list: laughing with my wife, tackling small but meaningful challenges (I'm a physically awkward guy but I've felt proud learning some basic home repair skills), reading books, beer, and conversation. That's basically it. So now I make time for those things and tune out the noise of what I'm supposed to want.
2. I treat my job as a source of money and a place to potentially form relationships. I also consider it an opportunity to exercise craft and quality, but I recognize that's not the main reason I'm there—it's not why I was hired and it's not (solely) why I took the job. Giving work a smaller (but still meaningful!) place in my life solved a lot of emotional problems.
3. Recognizing that "permanent happiness" is not a very realistic goal for human beings, and it's easy to make yourself miserable trying to be happy. I referenced this in another HN comment, but I really like the book "The Happiness Trap." It essentially helps you stop trying to run so hard from feeling negative emotions, and being ok with having negative experiences and feelings reduces so much stress.
4. The last one was "productivity," which manifested in many insidious ways. The first was turning all of my free time into a resource for self-improvement. I actually enjoyed this earlier in life when I was building a skill that I found interesting, but it became my goal to just get "better," and that was more useless pressure. I also tried to fit in an impossible amount of tasks, and to come up with systems to manage it all. Accepting my own limitations and the fact that there will always be more than it is possible to do really helped take another big category of stress away. "Four Thousand Weeks" is a great book.
All of this is not to say it's easy, or that I'm 100% fine all the time now. I still get depressed, overwhelmed and so on at times. But overall my quality of life is way up, I enjoy my days a lot of the time, I can function, I feel my life moving in a good direction. Mostly it was a journey of subtraction rather than addition. For a long time I didn't realize how many things I could just put down.
You're married with a family. You're quite fortunate. I hope you learn to appreciate that.
This is me. I was in a leadership role at a large institution and made the mistake of joining a promising startup (great partners, good funding). In 2021, the company went down, and since then I have been rejected for everything. And by everything, I literally mean every possible way to get money in. I have only been scraping the leftovers at the bottom. Recently, I joined an outsourcing company to do digital transformation work (I have deep AI experience). It's shocking to see people getting hired with 0-1 interviews who then prove to be incompetent just because they are the right caste.
Your last sentence is what actually happened to the job market that we don’t want to talk about for some reason
at 40 I became a woman and never been happier
Became? Do you not consider yourself to have always been so?
(Out of curiosity, if you don't mind the question).
I had a friend who transitioned and it was such a delight to witness the transformion. Before they were the most flaky of friends, always flitting from on thing to the next, not stable, couldn't hold a job or hobby together for very long. Then they finally transitioned and my god the difference was night and say. They're stable now, they're reliable they're just fun to be around. They've finished a second degree and have held the same job for eight years now.
It's crazy how much not being at home in their body disrupted every part of their life
Serious congratulations. I understand untreated gender dysphoria is a huge predictor of suicide.
I am 43 and only in the last few years have things turned better. I want to say that life is tough for different people from different parts of the world. For various reasons. But overall we have a set of systems that do not care.
The lack of friendship, care, love cannot be eased with money. I used to be crazy about startups. I used to want to live in New York (I am from Kolkata). I had a great run in my twenties but I crashed many years ago. Living in Germany helped a lot. I realized I was not loved or cared for. By myself mostly.
My parents love me but my dad has mental health issues which took a really bad toll on my childhood and teen years. I swept away the need for a love and care and replaced it with money. Many of us are doing this. The system needs most of us to slave. Now, I have been living the village life for about 6 years. I moved my parents as well. We have farms. I still write software, well, mostly generate them with LLMs.
There is a sense of purpose here that I started to feel. Over these last years, I have become more calm than I ever was. Happier, in a way I notice, every day. With less money than I ever had. Life is not about lots of achievements. We need meaning, love, purpose, care, friendships. We need slows walks, flowing water, walk in the rain, healthy food with zero labels. We need to grow our crops, care for animals, raise kids as a village.
I know I am typing this on a computer. But I no longer work for any tech company. I have a small consultancy client. I live as per a typical countryside routine. Most of my (whatever little savings) money is now invested in our farms where I work a few hours everyday, on time. Animals, dirt, mud, poop, crops, cleaning. All of it. Connected to how life is supposed to be. I used to hate glass buildings, still do.
Concrete, glass and everything about artificial spaces makes me sick. I am just one person, I do not have some research paper. But I know how I feel today vs a decade ago. Hope it helps.
> Connected to how life is supposed to be.
amen to that. I took up cheesemaking as a hobby, which has led me to making contacts with farmers. I desperately want to dump everything and go all in on it. Just using my hands every day doing things with objects not made from silicon.
Kinda funny how I used to make fun of the Amish. Now I realize their lifestyle is closer to what I want than ever (barring the religious stuff I mean)
Very similar boat. In my twenties I used to look down on working with hands - like carpenter, farmer, plumber. Now, I want to only do this. I switch between farm and desk work all day.
I started bake a couple years back but I am just not consistent. Need to get to that, would love to have fresh bread in the morning since we don't have that in any village nearby.
Battle it by working, meaningful work -- help others, no matter how small your actions may be, one step at a time...one day at a time. Just keep moving forward :) Life is beatiful
35 yrs old. Lost my job in 2024. Did a brief stint for a much less pay then quit. Now, unemployed for about a year and a half now.
Thinking of building a career in marketing in some form ( writing or video editing). I have a substack. Started a Youtube channel also. But, still clueless about how to do anything right now.
The money that was meant to be my kid's college fund and my retirement fund is helping me survive right now.
Pushing 50, homeless, broke, last interview today from a rented office with overdue rent.
Suicidal for a long time.
Interview fails? I'm out. I have everything set - account deletions, device wipes, and method. Will keep it low key if that happens.
I don't know what can I say to make you feel better but I will pray for you to find a job and have strength to get over this... Sending hugs from Timișoara, Romania.
The alternative is to be brave and hold onto hope.
I am in my late 40's and I am struggling more than I ever have in my entire life. I have a great marriage and 3 children and I have a good job with good income. I have nothing to be unhappy about.
And yet my children are grown now and mostly gone. I feel a profound sense of loss.
I feel like I'm entering the age where I'm a prime candidate for any myriad of diseases and I get so anxious every time I get a symptom. I go to the Dr. a lot. I went to the ER twice every year in the past 3 years. Ironically, its occurred to me that if I do have something terminal, I don't have to go on like this. And I like the thought of that. I'm both terrified of death and also really looking forward to it.
I used to enjoy my work, but AI has made it so that I just kind of show up and ask it for things. Anyone could do what I do. There's no sense of accomplishment in anything.
The worst thing about this is that I have every reason to be the happiest person here. So the fact that I feel the way that I do actually makes me a pretty bad person and that makes the whole thing feel a whole lot worse.
Hey friend. I’m right there with you. Everything you said resonates with me.
I’m curious, are you fully remote?
Have you tried anything to shake things up?
I am fully remote yes.
I am admittedly in a bit of a doom loop. I wake up, isolate in my office and then I want to just isolate all the time. This room makes me miserable and is also the only place I feel comfortable.
I try to exercise every day. I invest in spirituality and faith every day. I try to meditate and read and stay off my phone. Most days I don't do a very good job of any of it.
If you are remote, I recommend taking all the time you save with AI and watching random highly-rated video essays on youtube. :-) It's sounds like I'm kidding, but continually learning and engaging with education and criticism has kept my brain working in ways that make me happy. Getting into a new art form (I've been buying a lot of manga recently) and learning about it is exciting.
I am remote. And thank you so much for this tip. I'm willing to try anything. I will check it out.
My father was the first man in our family to live past 50. Maybe we’re overthinking it. And by it, I mean everything. Despair is the price one pays for setting oneself an impossible aim. The fact that I can wallow in self-pity of a comforting echo chamber in a swipe and a click and 0 emotional effort compared say, calling my mom; we have been aggressively primed and modified in our behaviors for the last 20 years and people are really wondering why people are committing suicide?
The only people afraid to put AI in charge are the ones who have invested interest in keeping you sad, lonely, and afraid.
Late 40s here, on antidepressants for the anxiety side more than depression.
I can totally see why this is highest in my demographic.
An underlying cause is quiet desperation, there are elements of failure in ones' own life, perhaps pressure caused deliberately by others as they step on you to get to the top. Perhaps it's the fact you start to notice death, your parents, family, and friends. You also see the beginning of your own aged based health decline.
Until society can support genx and older with their goals at this age, instead of telling them to get talking in men's groups, or saying it's alright to show emotions to a generation that grew up without this culture, this will probably continue.
I don't have an answer to fix it, but what I do feel would help is if was treated as a high risk stage of life without stigma. So 45+ men or menopausal women, can take time off to adjust, spend more time with family and friends, and it be treated as normal process, like a sabbatical or maternity leave or just a wind down from society like partial retirement.
This will never happen obviously because it means as a society we have to have a better welfare state and drop the ingrained idea that if you're not working you're a problem (not working is NOT the same as not contributing or benefiting to society, but people conflate this).
Perhaps the AI age will force us to fix that due to mass unemployment, the way COVID kick started remote working.
I am early fifties, and due to some sort of intrusive thoughts OCD-ish variant of ADHD, I have probably thought about suicide 25,000 times in the last ten years (not an overestimate). It is a several-times-per-day thing, if it’s not all day. Sometimes only an intrusive flicker, sometimes very much not. I have spent the last year or two dealing with burnout thinking about it regularly in depth; usually not for now, but for maybe ten years time when I believe it will be necessary.
I am a single man with no dependents who is struggling to work due to burnout, and I perceive that we are really not far off a world where young people will take seriously the idea that older people like me have had our time. I do not expect to be able to work for much longer because why would they let us keep our jobs or get new ones when we are taking away theirs? What can we teach them when we have built the tools that will destroy their livelihoods and wrecked the environment in which they live? Why should they listen to us at all?
Leaving a bit early may be the morally responsible thing for me to do. Understanding that living until I am dependent on care from the young is not going to be a good time when we are a despicable, despised generation, it’s an oddly liberating thought.
The thing is, someone that perceives these problems for young people is someone that should stick around and keep doing what they do to fix it.
You are the exact opposite of the people that need to leave early. Stick around and wait for when we come out the other side. I think these kids are going to figure it out, with our help.
We are not coming out the other side if we are not prepared to relinquish power (and wealth) to the young; can you imagine Gen X ever doing that? Look at who our “tech titans” are. Look at who we gave power to. Our most significant accomplishment is the PayPal Mafia; we funded and empowered all the worst ideas of millennials.
(Granted, millennials have to reckon with the AI CEOs being theirs, technically.)
> why would they let us keep our jobs or get new ones when we are taking away theirs
dunno, stick around and find out
A lot can be said of “They live” 1988 John carpenter film - OBEY CONSUME CONFORM
Highest among non-married middle-aged men or all middle-aged men?
I am 22 years old cs graduate.currently experiencing suicidal thoughts a lot of even the experienced people are having a difficult time then my situation is even more dire suicide has started to seem like a viable option !
Don’t. You’re 22. Everything can and will change, many times over.
Man... You're 22. You havent even started life yet. People are already living up to 80 years. In 1-2 generations (the 40-50s of today) will be living until 100. Your generation and later will live up to ~120 years and more. Everything will change. Your task is to survive and prosper as much as you can in the meantime.
You’re 22. You don’t have to be a developer, just do something else
Just got “over the hill” here. It’s…complicated, but not at all surprising on the whole.
My friends who are older are pessimistic as fuck. Several have been unemployed for lengthy stretches due to ageism in American hiring practices, which has resulted in their life crumbling around them as they lack the resources for basic upkeep anymore. I see that and shudder for myself, wondering if we’ll finally get this sorted before I hit my 50s or if this is just going to be a shitty fucking thing for the foreseeable future.
Social activity is hard for middle-aged men. We spend several hours a day commuting to and from work, which eats into our social budgets. Hard to host dinners, attend game nights, or go on dates when 80% of your day is spoken for work alone in some capacity (preparing for, getting to, performing, commuting home), which leaves us isolated. Most of our peers have paired off, so they have a stronger support structure - yet they too disappear at alarming rates.
At every conceivable intersection for the past fifty years, we’ve chosen to make life more hostile and less comfortable. I’m tired of feigning surprise at what, at least to me and my circles, is so sickeningly obvious.
How did previous generations working similar number of hours manage to have much richer social lives?
Wives organizing social events, I think is part of the conventional wisdom? And more communal work and eating together after work etc.
This. And also commutes were radically shorter than they are today, with more commuter services in many smaller cities than exist today.
We shifted from a sole-provider/homemaker model of couples to a dual-income-required model, at the same time our choices on car dependency and suburban sprawl came back to bite us in the ass. The working from home era was great for socializing because we could agree on small group nights if we were all feeling well, knowing we didn’t have huge commutes ahead of us after work and with the extra money in our pockets from lowered work costs; RTO mandates killed that again, as did the sudden jump in real estate costs, inflation, and stagnating wages in the face of AI investment.
That’s just the average, too. For edge cases like me in unorthodox households or living arrangements, it’s even harder.
People will die because nature works this way. Of course if humans find out ways to live longer (there are experiments, biological treatments) then this world will change a lot. But well... Everyone did not exist before born - if death is similar, it probably does not matter for us humans. If there are not God, Gods and something else then our lives could be pointless. You can die tomorrow and you will not find out it. You will not know that your family members or friends (if you have) will be sad. It is hard topic but you know.
I have no idea what you are trying to say
I wrote an article about youth mental health for my substack recently that touched on this. The suicide rate for the 50-59 demographic is far higher than the general population, but it collapses once you hit retirement age. If I had to guess, social supports for seniors plays a role.
I’d guess it has more to do with making a living, while preserving some dignity.
I believe every death is unique and not a statistic.
However, since the article is about "men" and "suicide". There is substantial evidence that suggest women (especially young girls) attempt suicide more than men... while men are are more likely to die from a suicide [1]
Does gender have a role in suicide? Maybe. But I would hesitate to generalize too much.
[1] I asked chatgpt to back up my claims. Please correct me if I'm wrong.
My understanding is that the disparity in "successful" suicides is because women tend to choose methods that can be reversed if you catch them quickly enough (like poison), while men tend to choose violent methods that are over quickly (like self inflicted gunshots).
This article is from the UK, where firearms only account for 2.5% of completed suicides. In both the US and the UK, men are generally more likely to succeed even after accounting for their chosen method, e.g. they take larger overdoses within the same drug class:
https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/abs/pii/S01650...
https://jamanetwork.com/journals/jamanetworkopen/fullarticle...
Almost like only one of them is actually serious about ending there life while the other merely uses it for attention they will get unlike the former
you just HAVE to make sure you insert women in this discussion.
After all they are the most effected by mans suffering.
https://www.azquotes.com/quote/842263
There have been plenty of periods in history with millenarian challenges, but I don't think there has been a period in history with so many different existential threats and uncertainties happening at the same time.
Between climate change, AI, economic instability, political catastrophes, various actual and impending wars, social media bot farms and trad media content farms, and entire industries that exist to lie about what's happening and pressure everyone to work and consume and live an ideal lifestyle with ideal productive values - there's quite a lot going on.
This is a very distressing article. If you're considering suicide, please don't.
It's the most heartbreaking situation. Suicide numbers are abhorrent in the US, Something like 50,000 people die each year.
This is the relatively more overt part of the depopulation agenda for decades.
28, Lost R&D job in gamedev, still looking, a friend of mine was sending applications for a year (Fullstack), It's tough out there
Ancillary comment, From TFA:
I understand the urge to do something on a large scale, but immediately pivoting to "the government" to solve personal mental health crises seems like a terrible idea.
Yes, the job market, decline in socialising, wage stagnation, difficulties starting a family, house prices, greedflation, mental health healthcare provision etc are all individual failures nothing to do with any government.
My issue is that "mental health" can be any issue that makes a person suicidal. You have a tough case to make that the collective government is responsible for fixing all those issues.
Instead, focusing on policies that harm (or do not help) those factors you rightly point out sure does seem like a better way of handling it. Otherwise what, you have to choose between housing costs and mental health (when clearly housing costs contributes to mental health??).
Choosing to focus on everything is choosing to focus on nothing.
Well, if you look around at this world, there ain't much hope for the future.
Guys should go back to the basics.
Back when we were in high school we were aiming to do the least amount of work to get through the year and spend the rest of the time hanging out with our mates.
A big part of our fault is also that we accept to get dragged by women into a territory that is not ours which is made up of large amount of introspection, extremely fine margins between good times and awful times and walking on eggshells with regards to social cues , the avoidance of social faux passes, planning years and years into the future down to the smallest detail .
That's the perfect recipe for depression for guys
We should go back to the basics and hangout with our mates trying to do the least amount of work as possible, play sports, banter with each other, take everything much less seriously and when we feel the need to have sex shoot for ONS or visit escorts or prostitutes and then go back to our mates.
Call me crazy, but I'm pretty sure from my understanding of human history and primate evolution that "long-term sexual/romantic partner" is, in fact, one of the basics.
Forget human history, that's the resultant of the median behavior optimized by Nature to produce the continuation of the specie.
At the individual level the pinnacle of happiness is teenage years and early adulthood.
Why wouldn't a rational individual not seek to prolong the behaviors in which one engaged during the pinnacle of happiness
sexual maybe
romantic? really?
I had an assumption that most of human history, marriage was more of an arranged marriage thing. With a lot of "women being treated as property", "heirs required for transfer of wealth", etc notation.
And there were also societies that were polyamorous in nature?
We are in a new world now, there is no need to force traditions (or worse yet, false traditions) that frankly doesn't seem to work anymore
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Maslow's_hierarchy_of_needs#Lo...
Absolute one of the most basic cornerstones of psychology.
I’m bored of how shocked people are about this. It’s been going on decades now. Think of all the great and/or famous men that have killed themselves in the last 60 years. It stacks up quick. No one cares.
I think about suicide every day. Thankfully death still scares me. If I didn’t have some of the responsibilities that I have then I probably would have drank myself to death and accidentally overdosed on pills just due to mixing both together.
I’m in the stereotypical category. I’m college educated, have a successful career doing what I enjoy, have a great house, wife and kids.
I deal with OCD, negative thoughts I can’t get control of, low self esteem, paranoia, and trust issues. It’s impossible for me to feel loved. However, I’m one of those silent sufferers and no one would be the wiser for the most part. Death feels like a sweet escape after having a few drinks. However, I’m too OCD to actually kill myself because I have too many final tasks and arrangements to finish up so that I can leave everything perfectly in order. The guilt aspect is serious too.
Middle-age is a serious thing to face. It’s a super scary time on all fronts, because if you don’t already have your shit together, then you’re completely fucked if something happens.
You have kids. You have to go on for them.
Hi, very similar situation as you. Diagnosed OCD, paranoia and trust issues. I also struggle with feeling loved and see myself as a burden. I also struggle with the idea that I'm only useful to produce taxes and that removing myself from the equation is the only control I have over the situation. I jokingly refer to death as "The Sweet Release". Anyway, not much point to my comment here other than relating to your situation and wanting to thank you for writing it.
This was a tough article for me. I'm only alive because I have to be. I have one family member left in poor health, and they depend on me, but when they are gone, I don't really see the point of sticking around. I am simply sticking around for them.
The last thing I will do is die alone, or worse, confined to a nursing home, abused by underpaid staff. Yes: I have tried over 15 medication's, therapy, you name it. I came to the conclusion a few years ago that accepting that my life has an end, and they I will make that decision to end it, has been comforting. I feel like it's the only, perhaps last control, I might ever have
Shout out to Tough Guy Book Club - find a chapter in your area, get reading, and get talking. If there's no chapters nearby, start one!
I've contemplated suicide and I'm not even middle age
There are numerous NDE reports that say people who commit suicide go through extreme agony after they die. It’s never an option. Tell this to anyone who thinks about this mistake and it may help him. Although he should do his own part of searching and listening to such stories to understand how big of a mistake this is.
To anyone with a degree not in software, you can pivot to a hands-on job. I'm a technician for factory equipment. AI is not replacing me for a long time.
I'm an absolute doofus in the physical realm. No hand eye coordination of any kind. No common sense. No social skills or ability to read and understand humans.
In any other era I would have been a useless drain on society and yet I happened by an incredible stroke of luck to be born at a time when the few skills I do have perfectly aligned with a career niche. It's been a good few decades. Now I just go back to being a useless nobody but at least I have my memories and my investments.
I'm staring down the barrel of this particular prospect lately. I struggled through my twenties living with family until I finally managed to get my bachelor's degree and a job with a really solid company/team/product line. That silo of the business was then sold off to private equity, and it was fine for a while, but now the owners have been ensorcelled by the song of a C-list "rock star CEO" who has no respect for the team or the product line and very definitely has no sense of where the inertia lies when he keeps jerking the steering wheel of this particular vehicle. It's fucking exhausting to have to hold my tongue in meetings when I so badly want to say "it's late because you decided to delay it when it was about to be done, and then a couple months later you decided that it was urgent and had to be done ASAP, and then you decided to reassign staff to an initiative that you just made up with no actual product definition. But that would get me fired.
Remember, class, because this will be on the test: capitalism is the superior economic system because it elevates people who allocate capital efficiently. Just don't ever look too closely at the input and output functions of any such definition of "efficiency" (hint: they conveniently tend to elevate people who are skilled at flattering capital owners).
That's great advice but still you can be replaced by younger people that also left software for a hands-on job.
I have noticed a real lack of qualified car mechanics. I mean people that can actually fix something in a car instead of just swapping pieces. Maybe that will be my next career. Don't know where to start, though.
Most people that age right now have no idea where they are going or where they will end up. And not even in their delusions can they pretend the world will somehow magically care about them in another 30 years.
Personally I have given up on hoping for a nice planned and well executed life up through retirement. My own skill set just isn't valued enough by the markets to set myself up separated from the festering human pits. Im just going to go for as long as I can just to see how things go at this point. I always did enjoy thrillers and tragedies, it sucks to be in one but it is better than being in nothing at all. And if the world just keeps getting crazier, maybe ill just join them in being crazy and maybe hopefully go out with a bang near the end.
It's about time to reread books by James Hollis
"Under Saturn's shadow" for instance
I'm in that group, and the only thing I hear is how women, immigrants and <<enter intersectionalist jargon here>> has it the worst. We're done with this shit. If you're thinking about suicide, seek other men, you will find more understanding than you think, it is worth living! Fuck this society, let the brotherhood flourish against it.
How is it possible for these websites to not offer a “reject all” button when it comes to cookies but instead “reject and subscribe?” Is that because they are paywall and the website is subscription based? I thought there was a new law that said website users needed to be able to reject cookies (google offers this now for example, a simple, one click reject all button)
Fascinating. Curious what's preventing these folks to try themselves at entrepreneurship; with whatever toolset they have access to?
E.g. Audos.com already helped over 10k of similar "everyday" folks start their thing; many are makign decent moneys
This touches on many issues that basically amount to "society is deeply broken".
The first is that in many places, men over 50 are one layoff (or even one divorce) away from total financial ruin. Other comments here tell a story of people in tech who thought their careers were mapped out but AI has destroyed it all and they don't know what they're going to do. After 40, and after 50 in particular, once you lose that job your chances of getting another shrink drastically.
The second is patriarchy. Men tend to be valued and defined by what they can do and provide. Lose that and you lose your identity. As other comments have said, you become invisible.
Third is the general idea that only one's ties to other people are keeping an awful lot of people here. There have been studies on this and psychologists have frameworks to describe this. In a world where society is falling apart that resistance is crumbling.
It costs so much to just live now. People might need 2 or more jobs and be one emergency away from ruin. Eventually a lot of people must think "why am I doing all this?"
Lastly, the article says "every suicide is a devastating tragedy". I... don't agree. Certainly people with terminal conditions or they have to live with, say, crippling mental health conditions, I have to respect people's choices. It's their life. They're the only ones who have to live it.
I'm in my 50s now. In some ways I'm quite fortunate but I also have not one not two but three disabilities: poor vision just hovering above legal blindness (and getting worse), ADHD and level 1 autism. The last two weren't diagnosed until my 40s. The medical consensus that you could have both only formed in the 2010s. Prior to that it was believed to be one or the other. ADHD can be treated but autism? You just have to live with it. And it's incredibly isolating in a way I know will never change. Fun for me.
I'm not a religious person. I'm a strict atheist actually. But I've had one unshakeable belief my entire life and that is that I won't live to be old. I have no basis for that belief but I can remember thinking 30 years ago there's less than 50% chance of making it to 60 and less than 10% of making it to 70. No idea why.
I've now had Covid 6 times, which is funny given how isolated I am but despite 5 jabs, each time it's worse. I'm kinda surprised I don't have Long Covid honestly. The last time I was bedridden for 2 weeks and it took 4 weeks to "recover". To physically exert myself really took almost 3 months. Do I see myself surviving that another 10-20 times? No.
I guess another aspect to all this is a thing called passive suicidal ideation. A lot of autistic people have this apparently and it's not so much a desire to end it all but rather kinda wishing just not to be here. It's just too hard. I... get it. It's kinda like wishing some other sperm impregnated that ovum years ago.
Hi, consider talking to someone. Also, community helps.
Sometimes I think joining a cult wouldn’t be too bad right about now. Hear me out: a bunch of people pool money to buy a massive amount of land somewhere and then building everything they need by hand: homes, farms, etc. and everyone has a strong sense of community from daily interaction and shared purpose, with regular rituals to keep a sense of stability. If we must work by manual labor, it is more satisfying to work to benefit those around you than for increasingly worthless dollars. No smartphones or thinking machines allowed.
I've had this thought many times, though a big part of a cult is like being employed: they let you be in the cult because they can pay you less than what you generate for them.
if you no longer needed money, how much would you really need to be paid?
You feel a lot differently about not getting paid when you're working 10 hour days doing farm labor and can't afford to go anywhere even if you get a little time off. Cults intentionally pile on work to separate you from any existing friends/family/acquaintances.
The people running cults don't really want co-ops, they are almost exclusively narcissistic egomaniacs, they're doing it specifically to extract something from you. For men this is generally manual labor, money, and protection, from women it's often sex, child-rearing, and housework. If you're of the mind to stand up for yourself or others they'll kick you out pretty quickly if you don't submit via degradation and humiliation.
There's a reason it's only appealing in theory, there's a ton of reading from ex cult members to back this up... look into "Escaping Utopia" "Take Back Your Life: Recovering from Cults" and "Terror, Love and Brainwashing." Even intelligent and intentional people get sucked into these dynamics.
The alternative is stay in a capitalist system, get paid little working a shitty job, that never really affords you time to go on a vacation anywhere, and have no real family or community at all. Honestly you’re not making cults sound unattractive compared to the looming alternative in the high unemployment AI dominated world.
yes, outside of all the direct physical, verbal, and financial abuse... cults are pretty appealing
That sir is a commune not a cult.
There are many, already available to join
Sucks when friends dies. Cancer, accidents and so on is just terrible, but suicide really sucks. One of my old friends ended his life a couple of years ago. It really hit me.
The weight of expectations is a heavy one.
At the end of the day we (men) are the ones expected to provide, to win over the women, to keep the marriage from falling apart, to keep the kids safe. And at any point we fail in our career or one of these things we are left staring into the abyss with no one to help us but ourselves. This is why I reject a lot of liberal views. Even when we tried equality, all we did was take away power from the man that is still expected to do everything.
Mid-40s western man living far from the West. Have three young children with a mom who is currently ineligible to hop on a plane with me back to my country of origin.
If you haven't already made it like the good times claiming influencers (@@ dhh and levels) who've accrued enough capital to ride whatever wave comes it is looking pretty bleak under these waters.
At least with my pension's survivor benefits and savings the kids would be able to make it til their 20s well supported with a better quality of life than what it looks like the labor market will afford me.
I mean because I've seen and done everything I have hope to see and do in my life. Why not just die.
A few years ago, I had a series of health conditions that left me in unbearable suffering every moment of every day. At a certain point, when it was obvious that there was no probable way out, my mind reflexively starting tell me to kill myself. I would look at any menial object and my mind would automatically start considering ways I could use that object to end my life.
This went on for months, on and off. I wouldn't say I "endured" it, but I trained myself to just try to get through the next hour, or the next minute if things were really bad.
I'm much better now and that experience in many ways helped me, but I have no romantic feelings about it and I'd prefer if it hadn't happened. If someone had given me a painless out that I could trust back then, I almost certainly would have taken it. Instead, I learned acceptance in a pretty awful way.
I'm saying this for a specific reason: for many people, their suicide isn't some act of "giving up" or not being willing to endure; it's that some physiological process has begun that strongly urges you to do it every moment of every day. I understand why people have some anger or disappointment with loved ones who have died by suicide, but I personally do not feel that way. After what I experienced, I'm just happy that any of us get a chance to live in peace at all.
i agree with the sentiment. i have felt suicidal on and off pretty much my whole life, but that is a very different feeling from those moments where you experience a drive to immediately end your life.
many years ago, i had similar experiences with seeing objects and feeling pulled to use them to end my life. the magnitude of desire to end my life was quite terrifying at times. its like i was completely okay with doing it because it was the only thing that mattered in the moment.
i had an attempt when i was in elementary school still. it was as if i couldn't stop myself from just hurting myself. it really was me grabbing something next to me and immediately and trying to use it to kill myself.
i wonder what causes that feeling when emotionally distressed. that is when you are most vulnerable to actually committing suicide i feel like, not the long bouts of contemplation. although, that leads to suicide commonly enough as well.
The really scary thing is that we're at the beginning of the AI revolution, and even more people will be out of their jobs soon. It will only get worse for a next decade or so.
I'm almost 50, so it's too late to go into trades. Things are not looking good.
Sell the house, learn spanish, move to Costa Rica.
It's not surprising that murder-suicides are popular in the US amongst this age group, responsibility can be crushing.
Any breakdown by race?
"What Got You Here Won't Get You There"
The name of the book stays in my head rent free (even though the book itself probably isn't worth reading). So far, 40s look like that to me.
Also, maybe that "socialist support net" Europe has, and techbros loved to diss, isn't so laughable right now?
Why do you think Europe is much different in this regards? It's still a dog eat dog world.
It might be, but I still prefer to not die of banal disease or indebt my whole family for it just because i was temporarily out of work.
Yes. There are traps and many kinds of countries in "Europe", but in many of them you're guaranteed to never be homeless or starving or left without medical care long term if you accept the help.
but how does that effect women?
We live in a winner-takes-all world. Either you are compounding success, or you are compounding failure. Middle-age is when all potential has been spent and where you are is essentially where you will be until you die. Some middle aged men are billionaires with access to nearly anything they could want. Others have seen only repeated failures, accelerated by an economy that doesn't reward anyone but the most nimble, intelligent, or sociopathic.
The Founders Guide to Suicide: https://anthonydavidadams.substack.com/p/the-founders-guide-...
I wrote this about overcoming the suicidal urge, what I learned beating an “incurable” diagnosis without meds, and how it’s informed my coaching of some of the most successful unicorn founders in history.
this is not the place to advertise your professional leeching business
Read the room man
Even before opening the article it made me think, am I middle aged man already? Never thought about it until today, I remember watching American Beauty before going to serve in military in my late teens thinking it's basically my father's age (though Spacey was at time of shooting 39-40 and my father was older), just now realizing I am at same age as Lester Burnham, married for 10-15 years with 2 kids.
I have less and less jobs "thanks" to AI, though I have my savings, which should maybe cover me already for the rest of my life, but even if they were going to wiped I don't see reason to kill myself over stupid money, it's just money. I had these ideas maybe as stupid teenager, but can't think of killing myself while having two kids, how would that help them or even me, what financial issues would I resolve by killing myself? I mean what's the worst scenario that can happen, ending homeless on street, where you can still enjoy life doing nothing.
Now since my income/jobs are dwindling I am thinking where to move with my career, though I wouldn't call it career since I don't desire some growth, but I would be perfectly fine with doing librarian (which seems like pretty laid back job with not so great salary, but enough to get by, another one to consider would be night watchman I guess or some museum supervisor) or whatever the least responsibility job you can find (cough American Beauty reference, cough[1]), in the worst case you can always find job in Lidl, I guess it is still better than being homeless on street and you can enjoy interaction with coworkers compared to working from home 10+ years. Heck I was even considering whether I could do some job where I would be contributing to wellbeing of other people like emergency services hotline (been doing something similar in past) to give your life extra meaning, but not really needing this, seems USAns are obssesed with this idea being defined by job, for me job is just a way to make enough money and it doesn't define me. I mean even in US can't you just move to some small place with low living expenses and find there whatever shitty job and just enjoy your life in your spare time without participating in rat race?
[1] https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TJh5wdvdfVE
Btw. article says "Those aged 50 to 54 are at greatest risk of taking their own lives as charities warn deaths ‘remain stubbornly high’"
"There were also increases in suicides among pensioners, with the biggest rise among those aged 75 and older, while the rates among men under 45 fell slightly."
Which makes me think men under 45 are still not considered middle aged since they mention rates under 45 fell.
TLDR it seems if you are under 45 as many commenters here claiming they are 36, 39, 40, 44, you are still not middle aged according this article, though google AI overview tells me "Middle age for men generally starts around 40 to 45 years old, as defined by organizations like the National Institute on Aging."
Another pretty good advice for life, it will take only few minutes of your time, hard to disagree with anything said in the video:
Baz Luhrmann - Everybody's Free To Wear Sunscreen
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sTJ7AzBIJoI
get a dog?
This is the way.
Yes because when you are struggling to take care of yourself, piling on vet bills and food and more responsibility, and less social time will really help.
Depression hates a moving target. The responsibility for exercising my dog is tremendous for my mental (and physical) health.
I love my dog but absent my partner's desires, I don't think I would've taken it on. The cost, attention, potential behavioral issues, the prospect of losing them eventually are not for everyone.
Worrying over another being you are responsible for and thinking less about yourself and your own situation...just might help with depression I would think.
And nothing increases the desire for other people to be sociable with you than walking a dog.
I'm working on this actually. I had a dog for 12 years and she really kept me going. Saved me. But she died a couple years ago, literally the day after one of my parents, and it's been tough. But I'm really thinking about getting another dog; I really want to get another dog.
Get another dog. I would if I had a little garden for them. It sounds like you already know you should/want to.
I'm saving for it! The fee is $350-400 to adopt, so it will just take me a little time.
Go get it man, they are the best.
This is my pack: https://i.imgur.com/hnoioNy.jpeg
Men used to be men
We all know what the problem is.
Dear HN, please stop posts like this in making to the top page. This actually normalizes the idea of suicide even with people not thinking about it. I don’t remember the book but it has been discussed a lot in psychological aspects of these news articles influencing the behaviour in them.
There is no war in Ba Sing Se